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Blorg
06-30-2015, 02:29 PM
Only bold votes count.
You can change your vote at any time before the day phase ends.
The sun will set exactly 36 hours after the time of this post. Regardless of whether or not I announce nightfall exactly 36 hours after the time of the post. If the sun set at 12:00 and I only got around to announcing nightfall at 12:01, no, that doesn't change the fact that the sun set at 12:00.
If you die during the day, stop talking immediately when the sun sets.
Read my posts.
any of the roles from this list (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Normal_Roles) may be in play.
Do not quote or refer to my PM's.
Don't cheat.
If you feel an overwhelming compulsion to do something earth-shatteringly clever and sneaky that has even the slightest potential to be considered cheating, ask me about it first via PM.
In the case of a tie, there will be no death during the day.


Player List:

prometheus, vanilla townie, killed Night 1
GnarlFox
stigmatica, vanilla townie, killed Night 3
Light Leak
Buddha
Utisz*, mafia, killed Day 3
*Tony, aberrant townie, killed Day 3
ferrus, town cop, killed Day 2
Hephaestus, vanilla townie, killed Night 4
lethe
MacGuffin, vanilla townie, killed Day 1
P-O, mafia, killed Day 4
OrionzRevenge
LowIQLogan, vanilla townie, killed Night 2
Sappho
ent
helium

summary (http://www.princeton.edu/~sucharit/~mafia/introduction.htm)

There are 2 teams: mafia and townies. Mafiosos want to kill townies; townies want to kill mafiosos. You'll be told whether you're a townie or mafia in a pm at the start of the game. If you're a townie, you won't know which of the other players are townies and which ones are mafia. If you're mafia, you'll be told (via pm) who the other mafiosos and townies are.

The game is divided into "days" (48 hours each) and "nights" (12 hours each, or until all night actions are received).

Every day, one player can die. During this time, every player - mafia and townie - has the option of discussing suspects/brewing paranoia in the game thread and then bolding the name of his/her prime target, the person they most want to kill. At the end of the day, the person whose name has been bolded by the most players dies (they drift away to the graveyard thread and can't comment on the game anymore). Then, I will publicly reveal the real identity of that person. If they turn out to be a mafioso, yay for the townies. If you're a townie, you'll be shooting in the dark for the first couple of rounds, because there won't be many clues about who the mafiosos are, but slip-ups and insights will accumulate in the thread over time.

Every night, the townies have to go completely silent and cover their eyes, and the mafia gets to kill a townie. They discuss and vote in pm's (and then send the mod (me) the name of the agreed-upon townie). This has to happen by the end of the night. In the next day phase, I will reveal the name of the murdered townie, and discussion in the game thread can resume, with this new evidence in hand.

There are also special roles, which complicate the game. If you have a special role, you'll be told so in the first pm.

The game ends when the townies manage to kill all the mafia, or when the mafia outnumbers the townies.

lethe
06-30-2015, 02:39 PM
Oh heph.

<3

Buddha
06-30-2015, 02:44 PM
Well, this is unexpected.

I'm curious to hear what our batshitman found out last night

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 03:07 PM
I'm a little surprised by this. I didn't expect Heph to be a vanilla townie.

Heph said some stuff that was making me think he was possibly a Traitor. I didn't trust the investigation result on him either... and was beginning to wonder if he was Godfather.

My guess is possibly the mafia noticed these same comments from Heph and thought he was the true Deputy.

I think maybe Heph made those mysterious comments intentionally to draw attention on himself, and give the town a chance.

So thanks Heph.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 03:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_izvAbhExY


http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d198/OrionzRevenge9000/batshitmeter_zps7yupnkvb.gif


Whoever has my Back: :cheers:

My Investigation: helium - Vanilla Townie

I know this situation is going to cause a good many concerns. As it should.

I need my expert friends to provide the town with some data pleas.

What were the chances of a 3 Special Role Town?

What Maf Role, besides GodFather is undetectable?

This situation needs to be debated and should be debated. I'll leave Crazy Ozzy in the trunk and invite vigous speculations about my Loyalty.

I AM the Back-Up Cop. I don't like the word 'deputy'. (Maybe like how the Title: Busboy might chafe a Black guy.)

All I can tell you is, thankfully up to now, my hands have never been stained with Townie Blood.
Yesterday, when the Town finally got a chance to strike back at the Mafs, I trusted my alliance of friends to take lead as to the choice.

It's a very Good Morning! :)

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 03:42 PM
One more thing that just came to mind.
If you suspect that this is the Super Ultimate Bussing Scheme being played out then put the noose around my neck. Because the Town is going to need him a hell of a lot more than it is going to need me.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 03:44 PM
I meant to say the towns is going to need Heph a lot more than me.

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 03:45 PM
I think GodFather is the most commonly used undetectable maf role - and the only one that I've seen used that I can recall. I've read about modifiers that can make other roles undetectable but haven't seen them in use.

I've usually only seen 2 special town roles used.

I think the question is how many mafs are we dealing with. I'd guess 3-4. If it's 3, then we've already gotten the only two detectable mafs. If it's 4 there may be one yet left to detect. I doubt we'll get the chance to do that though.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 03:52 PM
Sorry, I'm still digesting it too.

I also need suggestions to be submitted as to who I should investigate next.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 04:38 PM
I think the question is how many mafs are we dealing with. I'd guess 3-4. If it's 3, then we've already gotten the only two detectable mafs. If it's 4 there may be one yet left to detect. I doubt we'll get the chance to do that though.

3 or 4 seems about right. The mafia didn't fear keeping OrionzRevenge alive as much as they did keeping Hephaestus alive. This makes me lean towards thinking there are three mafia in the game and OrionzRevenge is no longer a danger to them.

If there are no more mafia that he can detect at night he is still useful to us as the one person we can all trust not to deliberately make a choice that is bad for townies. I think he has to be the one to decide who we vote for today.

We also have to get helium back in the game. He is a liability to our side at this point. He's been confirmed as a townie and he is not voting along with us. Meaning we have one less vote against the mafia on any given day. On his profile it shows: "last activity: 06-25-2015 04:32 AM". I don't know if that includes PM'ing but I suspect it does. That's easy to figure out. I'll send a PM to helium asking him to come back to the game and I'll do a test and let you know if "last activity" includes sending PM's.

If there is only one mafia left in the game we have a few more days before we start voting for confirmed townies, regardless, so voting for OrionzRevenge, lethe or helium make no sense today.

If there are two left then the remaining mafia (the one other than the Godfather) has to be one of:

gnarlfox
light leak
buddha
sappho
ent

I'm going to check out everybodies behavior in the last days in light of the new information we learnt today and see if I can find things that don't check out. But I'm not going to bold any names. I am always voting for whoever OrionzRevenge decides to vote for.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 04:46 PM
I just sent a PM to helium and my last activity shows as 6:41 -- the minute I sent it, and not the minute I made my last post (the one above). So helium has not been sending PM's. He's almost certainly not mafia. And if he is... he's of no use to them.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 04:49 PM
@Hephaestu

What speculations do you have?
Buddha has offered some intriguing speculations.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 04:50 PM
Hephaestus

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 04:56 PM
If there is only one mafia left in the game we have a few more days before we start voting for confirmed townies, regardless, so voting for OrionzRevenge, lethe or helium make no sense today.

If there are two left then the remaining mafia (the one other than the Godfather) has to be one of:

gnarlfox
light leak
buddha
sappho
ent

I'm going to check out everybodies behavior in the last days in light of the new information we learnt today and see if I can find things that don't check out. But I'm not going to bold any names. I am always voting for whoever OrionzRevenge decides to vote for.

I don't know why we would want to wait a few days before we consider voting for those who have come up as vanilla townies in an investigation. We know there's probably going to be a Godfather, and the Godfather will show up as a vanilla townie. The bigger question is if we have reason to believe that those who have come up as vanilla townies are Godfather. I'm not saying they should be the only suspects. I'm just saying that I don't see the reason for excluding them.

I'm not a math person, so I can't figure how many days of guessing wrong we would have left before we loose. All I know is that we may only be going after the Godfather at this point, and we need to start figuring out who that might be because that's going to be the hardest maf to catch.

If we go by your list, and let OzR pick, the suspects are probably going to be limited to this list since OzR seems to trust ent and Gnarlfox:

Buddah
Sappho
Light Leak

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 04:56 PM
@Hephaestu

What speculations do you have?
Buddha has offered some intriguing speculations.

Ummmm... did you see the first post... Heph is dead.

Fitz
06-30-2015, 05:13 PM
Ummmm... did you see the first post... Heph is dead.

Crosses fingers for casper the heph.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 05:18 PM
Ummmm... did you see the first post... Heph is dead.

Nothing implied.

I just see that Heph is about on the forum and I'd like to hear him speculate on all the comments and ideas, but what Buddha was saying just intrigues me more. As far as getting comments upon.

Also, I'm not alone in deciding who we risk killing.

The behavior I've noted suspicious would indicate that I have to be looking strongly at you and Sappho.

But I am not the town.

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 05:25 PM
Nothing implied.

I just see that Heph is about on the forum and I'd like to hear him speculate on all the comments and ideas, but what Buddha was saying just intrigues me more. As far as getting comments upon.





Player List:

prometheus, vanilla townie, killed Night 1
GnarlFox
stigmatica, vanilla townie, killed Night 3
Light Leak
Buddha
Utisz*, mafia, killed Day 3
*Tony, aberrant townie, killed Day 3
ferrus, town cop, killed Day 2
Hephaestus, vanilla townie, killed Night 4
lethe
MacGuffin, vanilla townie, killed Day 1
P-O, mafia, killed Day 4
OrionzRevenge
LowIQLogan, vanilla townie, killed Night 2
Sappho
ent
helium

I think that more than implies. And dead players can't comment.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 05:33 PM
Ummmm... did you see the first post... Heph is dead.

Oh shit!

I didn't notice.

I saw I was alive and that P-O was red and just assumed a protector.

I'm embarrassed about my victorious return now.

Damn
RIP Heph

Disregard the notions I've posted above that make no sense.

Holy Shit. (Thinking without saying things out loud)

I definitely need the towns help here.

All we know of Helium is he participated in a first day kill jumping on last.
He claimed to be a n00b.
It is possible there was some old planet animosity with MacG (I have no clue)

lethe actions can be looked at one of two ways. Good or Ill. But not indicative of ents get IMO

Did she Vote for P-O?

I have already indicated that behavior-wise, I have strong suspicions of both Light Leak and Sappho.

Input?

Sorry guys for being such a stupid ass about Heph's death.

RIP my friend, we both fought for the town.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 05:36 PM
of anything suggesting ent of being suspect IMO.

I've many times stated why.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 05:53 PM
Nothing implied.

I just see that Heph is about on the forum and I'd like to hear him speculate on all the comments and ideas, but what Buddha was saying just intrigues me more. As far as getting comments upon.

Also, I'm not alone in deciding who we risk killing.

The behavior I've noted suspicious would indicate that I have to be looking strongly at you and Sappho.

But I am not the town.

May I remind you that the person who asserted my veritable innocence most strongly on Day 4 has just been killed off? The mafia may have done so in part because there aren't any more people around who have got my back, and because they want to see another townie lynched.


of anything suggesting ent of being suspect IMO.

I've many times stated why.

I've begun to think he's the type that acts strangely when hounded – not when actually guilty; and thus I firmly believe in his innocence.

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 06:01 PM
All we know of Helium is he participated in a first day kill jumping on last.
He claimed to be a n00b.
It is possible there was some old planet animosity with MacG (I have no clue)

lethe actions can be looked at one of two ways. Good or Ill. But not indicative of ents get IMO

Did she Vote for P-O?

I have already indicated that behavior-wise, I have strong suspicions of both Light Leak and Sappho.

Input?

I looked into what Buddha was saying about helium's last user activity and it checks out. I didn't personally test the PM thing myself, only that helium has not been active - so it seems unlikely that he's logged in. This is unfortunate if he's a townie because he's no help to us if he's not participating. But if we kill him we're probably wasting a turn to kill off a non-participatory townie instead of finding a maf.


I don't see that lethe voted at all on Day 4. Seems like a maf would want to vote P-O and blend in though.


Sappho hasn't raised my suspicion much. If she's mafia, she's doing a good job of fooling me.


I'm most suspicious of Buddha at this point. He was hesitant to vote Utisz on Day 3.


I'm leaning towards killing the confirmed mafia guy...

I'm also suspicious that he wants to vote for whoever OzR votes for. I don't see the issue with trusting OzR, but I don't know why he wants to give up his choice in the vote.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 06:08 PM
May I remind you that the person who asserted my veritable innocence most strongly on Day 4 has just been killed off? The mafia may have done so in part because there aren't any more people around who have got my back, and because they want to see another townie lynched.



I've begun to think he's the type that acts strangely when hounded – not when actually guilty; and thus I firmly believe in his innocence.


I looked into what Buddha was saying about helium's last user activity and it checks out. I didn't personally test the PM thing myself, only that helium has not been active - so it seems unlikely that he's logged in. This is unfortunate if he's a townie because he's no help to us if he's not participating. But if we kill him we're probably wasting a turn to kill off a non-participatory townie instead of finding a maf.


I don't see that lethe voted at all on Day 4. Seems like a maf would want to vote P-O and blend in though.


Sappho hasn't raised my suspicion much. If she's mafia, she's doing a good job of fooling me.


I'm most suspicious of Buddha at this point. He was hesitant to vote Utisz on Day 3.



I'm also suspicious that he wants to vote for whoever OzR votes for. I don't see the issue with trusting OzR, but I don't know why he wants to give up his choice in the vote.

I think I pissed her off royally, so I don't think a no-show is indicative.
I would have found participation more interesting as the situation now stands.

When I used the words good or ill in reference to lethe, one should read that Townie or Maf.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 06:08 PM
May I remind you that the person who asserted my veritable innocence most strongly on Day 4 has just been killed off? The mafia may have done so in part because there aren't any more people around who have got my back, and because they want to see another townie lynched.



I've begun to think he's the type that acts strangely when hounded – not when actually guilty; and thus I firmly believe in his innocence.
Duly Noted.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 06:19 PM
I'm most suspicious of Buddha at this point. He was hesitant to vote Utisz on Day 3.

I'm also suspicious that he wants to vote for whoever OzR votes for. I don't see the issue with trusting OzR, but I don't know why he wants to give up his choice in the vote.

I get that. I've been wrong in my intuition about just about everybody the whole game.
My vote is most useful for strengthening the townie consensus. That's all I've been doing ever since I killed ferrus.
The only one we can all be reasonably certain isn't mafia is OrionzRevenge.

I'm leaning towards you and Sappho as well. Pretty certain one of you is mafia. I'm leaning towards Sappho at this point.
Killing off Hephaestus yesterday when he said he trusted her... seems like a pretty smart move. One she was very quick to point out today.

But... I'm leaving it up to OrionzRevenge, lethe and helium (if he wakes up). Even if the Godfather is amongst them... it's still two townies against one.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 06:21 PM
If I am going to die today (and I fully expect the mafia to pick me as the suspect townie du jour today)...
I think lethe is the Godfather.

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 06:29 PM
I'd be interested to hear thoughts on suspects from both ent and GnarlFox as well.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 06:33 PM
It is possible that there was complicit behavior between Utisz & Light Leak in Utisz v GnarlFox
and possible complicit behavior between P-O & lethe in ferrus v Utisz

can you guys think of possible such examples between any the remaining players involving Utisz or P-O?

Sappho
06-30-2015, 06:34 PM
I'm leaning towards you and Sappho as well. Pretty certain one of you is mafia. I'm leaning towards Sappho at this point.
Killing off Hephaestus yesterday when he said he trusted her... seems like a pretty smart move. One she was very quick to point out today.

:facepalm:

If what you say were true, why would the mafia want to kill a townie that asserts a mafioso's innocence? Seems like a bad swap against your weak conspiracy theory.

Either you're pathologically paranoid (but you don't normally strike me as such, serene user name and all) – or your a mafioso. You're moving closer to the top of my own suspect list quickly.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 06:35 PM
I would also like to hear more speculations as to Why Heph????

Sappho
06-30-2015, 06:41 PM
I would also like to hear more speculations as to Why Heph????

You two generated a good deal of discussion which eventually resulted in the successful lynching of two mafiosi. I see why that would rouse the remaining mafioso's/mafiosi's ire/angst.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 06:59 PM
:facepalm:

If what you say were true, why would the mafia want to kill a townie that asserts a mafioso's innocence? Seems like a bad swap against your weak conspiracy theory.

Either you're pathologically paranoid (but you don't normally strike me as such, serene user name and all) – or your a mafioso. You're moving closer to the top of my own suspect list quickly.

It's not paranoia when they are out to get you...

Hephaestus is a very intelligent, good player. I'm sure you see the value for the mafia in getting rid of good townie players. He was the voice of sanity in the past few days. That killing him also - in case you are mafia - counts in your favor is an added bonus. They will have considered this and weighed it into their decision. I certainly don't think it proves anything.

Hephaestus had his doubts about you until halfway through yesterday. He never said why he changed his mind, and he - being townie - was as uncertain about other players as any one of us are.

The mafia are clever. P-O was voting for Utisz all throughout day 2, and they even staged a mock argument.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 07:18 PM
You two generated a good deal of discussion which eventually resulted in the successful lynching of two mafiosi. I see why that would rouse the remaining mafioso's/mafiosi's ire/angst.

And that makes it really tough.

I really need to know if there is a possible second Maf role undetectable.

If not then the implication seems, in my feeble estimation at this point, that the Mafs would bet that I'd not suspect to investigate a regular goon, that I find less suspicious.

I think any argument that GnarlFox was an insider carries little to no weight.

Because Utisz, potentially Light Leak, and any other Maf that might have planned to join in and aggressively attack GF before I started jumping up and down on Utisz, would have hatched this plan to sacrifice GF with the most Creative Mind among.

But they sent Gnarl to town with such a feeble-ass Smoking Gun that not even the Most Creative mind could sell it.

ent hasn't behaved in anyway that suggest to me anything but ent being ent. He jumped early on ferrus when ferrus was not at all in jeopardy and stated you got to get the quite guys.

Now at the same time I was calling such attacks feeble, as I was the attack on him and GnarlFox, and the attack on ent.

LOL

Before he jumped on ferrus he voted for himself and caused me to embarrass the hell out myself misreading who posted it.

The only two that would be implicated if ent is a plant are lethe and Sappho.

ent would vote for lethe this moment I'm pretty certain.

Also, before ferrus v Utisz, lethe and Sappho stuck with there attack of ent that had no traction.


Speculations and comments on what I just said eagerly asked for?

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 07:20 PM
I meant to ad I think ent jumping on ferrus at that time was to ridicule the same sort of attack on himself.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 07:28 PM
The only two that would be implicated if ent is a plant are lethe and Sappho.


Would you explain what you mean by "plant"? I genuinely don't understand.

I changed my mind after Day 2 for abovementioned reasons and have repeatedly asserted ent's innocence since then, of which I have become certain.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 07:33 PM
Also, before ferrus v Utisz, lethe and Sappho stuck with there attack of ent that had no traction.

If you're referring to your lynching MacGuffin, the reasons I stuck with my vote for ent in the first round were that

1) he struck me as suspicious at the time (while I hadn't been entirely wrong my initial assumption as to why, I had overlooked a crucial detail which eventually exonerated him),
2) I had no reading/opinion whatsoever on MacGuffin, and
3) changing my vote wouldn't have made a difference, anyway.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 07:36 PM
OrionzRevenge

I don't expect there to be another mafia role in play. We know what all the townie roles were and we started the game with one cop and one deputy. I think that balances out well with there being 1 Godfather. Maybe there are other roles but they don't change anything about what we have to do today. We have to vote for someone.

I trust Gnarlfox. He could have switched his vote from Utisz to ferrus on day 2 after that option started to gain traction, but didn't. He also reads very townie to me. P-O cast suspicion on him as well, along with ent and ferrus. This doesn't prove anything - as he voted for Utisz on day 2... but it's good enough to rank him as most likely townie or a confusing mafia player.

ent is equally trustworthy. He changed his vote to Utisz at a critical moment on day 2. (post 143). I can see nobody in the mafia doing such a thing, at such a risky moment. The chance of momentum building against Utisz was very real back then.

Everybody else seems suspicious to me except for helium but he's dead weight. We can only hope he comes back in one of the following days.

I don't know where lethe has gone.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 07:39 PM
Would you explain what you mean by "plant"? I genuinely don't understand.

I changed my mind after Day 2 for abovementioned reasons and have repeatedly asserted ent's innocence since then, of which I have become certain.

Hold up, what I'm saying suggests that you aren't implicated in that situation.

I'm saying in that bussing stuff people keep talking about is that ent-the-Maf would be sacrificed by attacking Mafs so that the attacking Mafs look like they know what they are doing.


If you're referring to your lynching MacGuffin, the reasons I stuck with my vote for ent in the first round were that

1) he struck me as suspicious at the time (while I hadn't been entirely wrong my initial assumption as to why, I had overlooked a crucial detail which eventually exonerated him),
2) I had no reading/opinion whatsoever on MacGuffin, and
3) changing my vote wouldn't have made a difference, anyway.

There is as of yet no Townie Blood on my hands. I was defending MacG by saying lynching him for saying "Not MAFIA" was feeble.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 07:41 PM
@OrionzRevenge (http://forums.intpcomplex.com/member.php?u=24)

I don't expect there to be another mafia role in play. We know what all the townie roles were and we started the game with one cop and one deputy. I think that balances out well with there being 1 Godfather. Maybe there are other roles but they don't change anything about what we have to do today. We have to vote for someone.

I trust Gnarlfox. He could have switched his vote from Utisz to ferrus on day 2 after that option started to gain traction, but didn't. He also reads very townie to me. P-O cast suspicion on him as well, along with ent and ferrus. This doesn't prove anything - as he voted for Utisz on day 2... but it's good enough to rank him as most likely townie or a confusing mafia player.

ent is equally trustworthy. He changed his vote to Utisz at a critical moment on day 2. (post 143). I can see nobody in the mafia doing such a thing, at such a risky moment. The chance of momentum building against Utisz was very real back then.

Everybody else seems suspicious to me except for helium but he's dead weight. We can only hope he comes back in one of the following days.

I don't know where lethe has gone.

We had a Cop & Back-Up Cop, I'm ignorant of the game but giving the Mafs just one SR seems very unbalanced. IMFE

lethe
06-30-2015, 07:42 PM
I think I pissed her off royally, so I don't think a no-show is indicative.
I would have found participation more interesting as the situation now stands.

When I used the words good or ill in reference to lethe, one should read that Townie or Maf.

You did not "piss me off" royally or not. But your inaccurate fantasies about my emotional motivations for my choices continue to cause me doubt your reasoning and judgement of players you haven't investigated.

I'm trying to survive.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 07:44 PM
I'm saying in that bussing stuff people keep talking about is that ent-the-Maf would be sacrificed by attacking Mafs so that the attacking Mafs look like they know what they are doing.

I don't think I follow.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 07:47 PM
We had a Cop & Back-Up Cop, I'm ignorant of the game but giving the Mafs just one SR seems very unbalanced. IMFE

It seems balanced to me, both functionally and in numbers.

Functionally: The cop can investigate mafia members, but one of the mafia is protected against those investigations and gains an advantage of being outed as townie. Cop is useful but a double edged sword when a godfather is in play. Only one of either the cop or backup cop are in play at any time. We only have one special role active at any time. Just as they do.

Numerically: I think there are roughly twice as many townies in the game as there are mafia. So it makes sense that we'd get twice as many special roles as they do as well.

Either way... this game is complicated enough already. If we have to start considering all of those special roles on the wiki page we'll never get anything done.

There's no certainty either way. Ever. But at some point you have to go with what seems most likely.

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 07:51 PM
We had a Cop & Back-Up Cop, I'm ignorant of the game but giving the Mafs just one SR seems very unbalanced. IMFE

Unless I'm forgetting something... I don't think I've ever participated in a game where Mafs had more than one special.

It's normal for the town to have more. Possibly they have a special other than The Godfather, but I'm expecting it to be Godfather.... that's the most common one - just like cop is most common for the town.

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 07:55 PM
It is possible that there was complicit behavior between Utisz & Light Leak in Utisz v GnarlFox

It might appear that way, but there wasn't.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 07:56 PM
Quite. Who says there's only one special role in the town? The OP states that "any of these roles (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Normal_Roles) may be in play". So it's possible we've got other Specials in town as well.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 07:56 PM
You did not "piss me off" royally or not. But your inaccurate fantasies about my emotional motivations for my choices continue to cause me doubt your reasoning and judgement of players you haven't investigated.

I'm trying to survive.

I'm sorry that I see the dynamic in a way that offends you. I understand, from things said in the virtual world above, that your view of me currently is not indicative of game dynamics. I wont reference my thoughts about my estimation of your behavior in ferrus v Utisz further.

I can't beat the bushes any further with Gnarl and ent, I have to justify my trust in them many times now.

Buddha has already posted above as to why I might find him suspect.

I don't want to kill an innocent Townie come sundown. If I'm overlooking something about Gnarl, ent, Buddha, or any other player for that matter then Please bring it to my attention.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 08:05 PM
Unless I'm forgetting something... I don't think I've ever participated in a game where Mafs had more than one special.

It's normal for the town to have more. Possibly they have a special other than The Godfather, but I'm expecting it to be Godfather.... that's the most common one - just like cop is most common for the town.

have you ever been in a game with two powerful Townie roles and only a GF?


It might appear that way, but there wasn't.
Duly noted. It is not to further implicate you. It my estimation that Gnarl isn't Maf, it adds no further weight to my concerns about you.

I'm not trying to advocate for any heads at this time. I just need as much help as I can get to avoid killing Townies.

Good information and speculations by Townies is helpful and credits the source.


Quite. Who says there's only one special role in the town? The OP states that "any of these roles (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Normal_Roles) may be in play". So it's possible we've got other Specials in town as well.

As fellow n00bs, I don't think we have enough info about how large an initial party it need be to justify more roles.

I just think having two cops in a town of 8 might be unbalanced if the Mafs only have a GF

lethe
06-30-2015, 08:08 PM
I'll say it again... Not offended.

Again you judge me inaccurately.

All I'm saying is because of this you will be unable to sway me based on your interpretation of other's motivations. Cheerleading won't work either. Those things will not be factors in my decisions. I'm looking for other points.

In fact, I'd suggest you spend less time trying to influence votes and more time trying to work together to figure it out, including considering the possibility that some of your assumptions are wing.

(Which to be fair, you have already been doing)

Sappho
06-30-2015, 08:08 PM
I just think having two cops in a town of 8 might be unbalanced if the Mafs only have a GF

Yes, but – isn't it so that the town wins once all mafiosi are killed; while the mafia already win once they merely outnumber the townies? In that case, I hope there's only three of them...

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 08:14 PM
have you ever been in a game with two powerful Townie roles and only a GF?

Yes. Check out the vampaliens game if you don't believe me. It had a cop, and deputy (or back up cop) just like now, plus an innocent child for town. Mafs only had Godfather.

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 08:19 PM
^
Mafs won that time... so it's not as unbalanced as it may seem.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 08:21 PM
Light Leak

With all your experience playing in these games in the past... what do you think we should do? You've been pretty silent all game, not really offering any suggestions or doing much of anything other than sit around, staying out of shot...

If you are mafia you'd be playing it very, very well. The best out of everybody remaining (with the possible exception of lethe and helium).

Buddha
06-30-2015, 08:24 PM
Yes, but – isn't it so that the town wins once all mafiosi are killed; while the mafia already win once they merely outnumber the townies? In that case, I hope there's only three of them...

Of course. Once there are as many townies as there are mafia the mafia can always control the day vote to lynch an innocent - or force a tie (in which case nobody dies and they win at night).

We need to have one more living townie than there are mafia.
If helium stays absent we need two.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 08:34 PM
I'll say it again... Not offended.

Again you judge me inaccurately.

All I'm saying is because of this you will be unable to sway me based on your interpretation of other's motivations. Cheerleading won't work either. Those things will not be factors in my decisions. I'm looking for other points.

In fact, I'd suggest you spend less time trying to influence votes and more time trying to work together to figure it out, including considering the possibility that some of your assumptions are wing.

(Which to be fair, you have already been doing)

Fair enough, but what I need is reasons and details in the record that I'm overlooking with regard to the people I'm least likely to throw under a bus ATM.

If you have such information or sights to offer the by all means.
I'm very well aware of my shortcomings in the situation we face. I need help and will credit the source for not obstucting.


Yes, but – isn't it so that the town wins once all mafiosi are killed; while the mafia already win once they merely outnumber the townies? In that case, I hope there's only three of them...


Yes. Check out the vampaliens game if you don't believe me. It had a cop, and deputy (or back up cop) just like now, plus an innocent child for town. Mafs only had Godfather.


^
Mafs won that time... so it's not as unbalanced as it may seem.

Thanks

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 09:00 PM
lethe the word "obstructing" in my reply should have been stated as: "not helpful"


Yes, but isn't it so that the town wins once all mafiosi are killed; while the mafia already win once they merely outnumber the townies? In that case, I hope there's only three of them...

I'm sorry, my brain is in a fuzz.

Speculation as to do you think this game might hedge below the Square Root rule because the last game hedged above.

Townie LIQL said he though it would be bang on.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 09:06 PM
To the person who PM'd me: I have no reason to engage in any private discussions related to this game. If you want something from me, state it publicly; I have nothing to hide. But it seems you do?

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 09:08 PM
I'm not that savvy.

I've heard it mentioned here that forum members can see who PMed who. Is this correct?

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 09:09 PM
@Light Leak

With all your experience playing in these games in the past... what do you think we should do? You've been pretty silent all game, not really offering any suggestions or doing much of anything other than sit around, staying out of shot...

If you are mafia you'd be playing it very, very well. The best out of everybody remaining (with the possible exception of lethe and helium).

I don't think I've been that silent - but I seem to get accused of that all the time. I think I'm being myself.

I offered my thoughts on GnarlFox on Day 2 and got attacked the rest of the day for it. I was trying to open a conversation at that point. I offered my thoughts on ent yesterday and Heph called them insane. To be fair he poked some pretty good holes in my reasoning.


OrionzRevenge - I trust that he is back up cop, as he says.
GnarlFox - I pretty sure he's townie.
helium - I think he's most likely a townie who hasn't bothered logging in recently.

ent - Heph made some convincing arguments towards him being townie. Plus everyone else seems to trust him too. I may have misjudged him.

Buddha - the original PM idea on day 1 isn't sitting right with me now. Mostly because Utisz commented then that he suspected Buddha being townie for proposing such an idea. Utisz had proposed similar ideas in the past as a townie and now I'm wondering if Utisz possibly put Buddha up to proposing this idea to appear townie.
lethe - the ferrus thing where she tried to convince ent to come back to her was strange. But if she's GF possible she did it to attract attention and get the cop to investigate her so she would be read as townie.
Sappho - as I said before, if she's mafia she's fooling me. I also can't find any evidence that suggests she's townie. So I can't be sure.

My choice would be to go after Buddha or lethe.

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 09:11 PM
I'm not that savvy.

I've heard it mentioned here that forum members can see who PMed who. Is this correct?

You can view the "who's online" thing and it will say whether or not someone is sending a PM. I don't think there's a way to see who PMed who. But seeing that someone sent a PM isn't very incriminating since they could be PMing members who aren't even participating in the game.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 09:16 PM
Right, I'm going with Buddha for overt fishiness unless somebody brings up a more reasonable proposition.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 09:16 PM
^^^ Thanks again.

Others offering analysis of the field and especially prime suspects among the ones more trusted by me are encouraged.

Fitz
06-30-2015, 09:21 PM
I'd be interested to hear thoughts on suspects from both @ent (http://forums.intpcomplex.com/member.php?u=25) and @GnarlFox (http://forums.intpcomplex.com/member.php?u=416) as well.

Since we've confirmed that P-O was mafia scum I'm even more suspicious of lethe now due to P-Os day one actions and her shenanigans with the ferrus vote.




ent would vote for lethe this moment I'm pretty certain.

Locked and loaded.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 09:31 PM
Right, I'm going with Buddha for overt fishiness unless somebody brings up a more reasonable proposition.

The implication someone might read into this is that Buddha might have attempted a back channel discussion with Sappho.

It would none of my business to be informed of such as according to LL it isn't permuted ass a forum function.

So I'm not asking that this be divulged.

I hope you understand why scrutiny should befall you. I'm not forgetting that there might be other implications that the the post above have been.

I was kinda sitting back on it to just watch, but I do have to consider you as being unsuspected by me enough and being a goony the Mafs could risk I not investigating last night.

Heph being here for one more day would have been very risk for the Mob.

I also have a hard time co-mingling some of the more, seemingly to me, bungling and your obvious knowledge of the game.

And mentioning first thing that you feared being hung today.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 09:38 PM
Buddha vs Light Leak

I'm up for it. Let's get this party started.

I vote Light Leak in the absence of OrionzRevenge putting forward a name. I'm still comitted to switching my vote to whoever he puts forward, provided it's not me.

Think about it.

If I was mafia I'd not put my name on the line like this. I'd wait until someone came forward. Mafia isn't going to put forward any names. They're still hoping the vote turns out Townie vs Townie instead of Townie vs Mafia.

I fully expect to die today. I have my record going against me. Goodbye, my sweet townies. I hope my coming death helps you weed out the last one or two remaining mafia.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 09:43 PM
I did PM sappho, trying to see if I could chat with her. I suspect she's a townie. She's been hovering over this thread for two hours, like I have been.

Chatting is good for figuring out who is telling the truth and who isn't. Less to hide in a real-time conversation.

Is that a problem?

She doesn't trust me. If I was mafia I'd be trying to influence someone else. Not one out of the two people who have been very vocal about their suspicions of me.

I wanted to get this day started already. We've all been waiting on OrionzRevenge to do something and he's not doing anything.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 09:51 PM
The implication someone might read into this is that Buddha might have attempted a back channel discussion with Sappho.

It would none of my business to be informed of such as according to LL it isn't permuted ass a forum function.

So I'm not asking that this be divulged.
I've said as much as can be said on this matter without breaking the rules.


I hope you understand why scrutiny should befall you. I'm not forgetting that there might be other implications that the the post above have been.

I was kinda sitting back on it to just watch, but I do have to consider you as being unsuspected by me enough and being a goony the Mafs could risk I not investigating last night.

Heph being here for one more day would have been very risk for the Mob.
If I say "Investigate me, then", will this convince you that I am as townie as it gets, or will it merely create the false impression of my being the Godfather?



I also have a hard time co-mingling some of the more, seemingly to me, bungling and your obvious knowledge of the game.
I am flattered by your misconception of my expertise, but I can assure you I know nothing about the game except for what the page, to which Dot linked, says about the different roles. My botchery, unfortunately, is sincere.



And mentioning first thing that you feared being hung today.

I would fear that indeed. Neither do I want to be hanged.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 09:55 PM
Chatting is good for figuring out who is telling the truth and who isn't. Less to hide in a real-time conversation.

Is that a problem?

I still wonder what it is you wanted to chat about and why you wanted to do it privately. If it's immediacy you're after, go ahead, post. I'll be here for ten more minutes or so.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 09:57 PM
I still wonder what it is you wanted to chat about and why you wanted to do it privately. If it's immediacy you're after, go ahead, post. I'll be here for ten more minutes or so.

No strategy. No pre-meditated topics. Just trying to get a read on if you are townie or not.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 09:58 PM
No strategy. No pre-meditated topics. Just trying to get a read on if you are townie or not.

1) How were you intending to do so?

2) Why would this be something that has to be done en cachette?

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 09:58 PM
Since we've confirmed that P-O was mafia scum I'm even more suspicious of lethe now due to P-Os day one actions and her shenanigans with the ferrus vote.

Locked and loaded.

She could be the GF, but her behavior could mean something else.

Letting me come back today seems to suggest that someone I don't suspect is a regular goon.
They took Heph instead because they feared what he might do or reveal today. IME

Straight up dude I have to mention it, Heph indicated that one in my circle of 4 wasn't trustworthy.
He was also more than willing to play ball with lethe.

And I have to ask myself about you because I find the idea of GnarlFox as a sacrifice with a feeble-ass smoking gun not very compelling.

But, then you stood with me on Utisz when we had momentum building
...so?

The resolution of this dilemma is going to be tough.

Heph could be wrong about that, but they know he might have discovered something else today I can't see.

So keeping in mind Heph might not be correct about my inner circle, my estimation of who an trusted regular gooney might be is:

Most concern on top.

Buddha
ent
GnarlFox


All information anyone can provide about the situation we are in is very urgently requested.

I can't think of any good reason why they would let me come back with another investigation in the morning (unless we only have 1 Maf reaming in play and that is the GF)

And not being too arrogant I think when I say this, I think it might get chaotic without a good read on who the goon might be. Which will aid the Mafs.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 10:01 PM
Buddha vs Light Leak

I'm up for it. Let's get this party started.

I vote Light Leak in the absence of OrionzRevenge putting forward a name. I'm still comitted to switching my vote to whoever he puts forward, provided it's not me.

Think about it.

If I was mafia I'd not put my name on the line like this. I'd wait until someone came forward. Mafia isn't going to put forward any names. They're still hoping the vote turns out Townie vs Townie instead of Townie vs Mafia.

I fully expect to die today. I have my record going against me. Goodbye, my sweet townies. I hope my coming death helps you weed out the last one or two remaining mafia.

Think about this: I have begged people for input because saying I don't want to kill a townie.

I'm not through deciding. But I'm still paying attention.

Sappho
06-30-2015, 10:06 PM
It's past midnight here. I'm going to sleep.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 10:09 PM
Think about this: I have begged people for input because saying I don't want to kill a townie.

I'm not through deciding. But I'm still paying attention.

I am townie.
Don't be so concerned about your perfect record.
Whether you bag a mafia this round or next round... doesn't matter.

I'm willing to put my life on the line. I care nothing about surviving this game. I want the townies to win.
I will not hold it against you if you vote for me this round. I'm fine with being the first blood on your hands.

But you must realize by now that nothing is going to happen today until you make a move.
AFAIK the sooner we start casting votes, the better. Votes give information. Information is in townies favor.

I'm gonna switch to whoever you pick, even if you change votes during the day.
But get on it.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 10:14 PM
1) How were you intending to do so?

I'd know. If you are mafia you'd have trouble giving convincing answers.
If not, you'd just say what you think.


2) Why would this be something that has to be done en cachette?

Not too worried about anything I say being out in the open here. I'm not hiding anything, am I?
But a thread lends itself more to pre-meditated, studied, deliberate answers.

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 10:18 PM
Buddha vs Light Leak

I'm up for it. Let's get this party started.

I vote Light Leak in the absence of OrionzRevenge putting forward a name. I'm still comitted to switching my vote to whoever he puts forward, provided it's not me.

Think about it.

If I was mafia I'd not put my name on the line like this. I'd wait until someone came forward. Mafia isn't going to put forward any names. They're still hoping the vote turns out Townie vs Townie instead of Townie vs Mafia.

I fully expect to die today. I have my record going against me. Goodbye, my sweet townies. I hope my coming death helps you weed out the last one or two remaining mafia.

If anyone thinks this will actually help then go for it. I'm a townie, but if people think I'm that suspicious it's probably better to just lynch me now so the town can focus on other suspects.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 10:23 PM
I've said as much as can be said on this matter without breaking the rules.


If I say "Investigate me, then", will this convince you that I am as townie as it gets, or will it merely create the false impression of my being the Godfather?


I am flattered by your misconception of my expertise, but I can assure you I know nothing about the game except for what the page, to which Dot linked, says about the different roles. My botchery, unfortunately, is sincere.


I would fear that indeed. Neither do I want to be hanged.


LOL
I really think we speak different languages. I wasn't implicating you.

Buddha
06-30-2015, 10:23 PM
If anyone thinks this will actually help then go for it. I'm a townie, but if people think I'm that suspicious it's probably better to just lynch me now so the town can focus on other suspects.

Likewise

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 10:39 PM
If anyone thinks this will actually help then go for it. I'm a townie, but if people think I'm that suspicious it's probably better to just lynch me now so the town can focus on other suspects.

I think you have just tipped it for me.

Yesterday when it became obvious that the alliance would prevail, Buddha voted with us and offered his wholehearted support. I told him Thanks, we'd probably carry the day now, and it made me have nice thoughts about him.

His comments thus far, and his behavior/understanding of the game being often polar opposites makes me suspect.

I think what is happening here is this:

The last part of the Impossible Insight is true: Utisz rushed in to add credibility to LL's suggestion that GnarlFox describing MacG as "Townie", before confirmed, was suspicious when I attacked her for that. As I was giving her the double whammy for supporting MacG's "Not MAFIA" .

I think we are finally seeing what Heph and others kept telling me to watch for.

Buddha is gonna sacrifice Light Leak to dispel fears that he is the inner Goony.

You'll have to sundown to dissuade me from my thinking.

Light Leak

Unless information comes to light to suggest otherwise, if Light Leak prove to be Maf then I urge my townie to consider Buddha the inner Goony.

OrionzRevenge
06-30-2015, 11:07 PM
I should have also mentioned that LL should turn-out to be the GF

Light Leak
06-30-2015, 11:45 PM
I think what is happening here is this:

The last part of the Impossible Insight is true: Utisz rushed in to add credibility to LL's suggestion that GnarlFox describing MacG as "Townie", before confirmed, was suspicious when I attacked her for that. As I was giving her the double whammy for supporting MacG's "Not MAFIA" .

I think we are finally seeing what Heph and others kept telling me to watch for.

Buddha is gonna sacrifice Light Leak to dispel fears that he is the inner Goony.

You'll have to sundown to dissuade me from my thinking.

Light Leak

Unless information comes to light to suggest otherwise, if Light Leak prove to be Maf then I urge my townie to consider Buddha the inner Goony.

That's not what's happening, but I don't think there's anything I can say at this point that will convince you otherwise. You're too stuck on this idea. Heph agreed that the GnarlFox thing was odd on Day 2, and so did LowIQLogan and they were townies. True both P-O and Utisz agreed with it as well, and they were mafia. The mafia were just jumping in on townie ideas though.

If the only way I can prove this to you is for me to die, then lynch me. I don't want to end up being the last lynch and having the town lose. I've done that already. If I'm going to be a lingering suspicion I'd rather just get it over with now while there's still a chance for the town.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 12:01 AM
That's not what's happening, but I don't think there's anything I can say at this point that will convince you otherwise. You're too stuck on this idea. Heph agreed that the GnarlFox thing was odd on Day 2, and so did LowIQLogan and they were townies. True both P-O and Utisz agreed with it as well, and they were mafia. The mafia were just jumping in on townie ideas though.

If the only way I can prove this to you is for me to die, then lynch me. I don't want to end up being the last lynch and having the town lose. I've done that already. If I'm going to be a lingering suspicion I'd rather just get it over with now while there's still a chance for the town.

It has to do with the dynamic of Buddha's chances of being discredited by apparently PMing Sappho

And then jumping the gun on me to vote for you.
Which you quickly then indicate you wouldn't resits being lynched so that the town might know the truth.

Day 6 I wont be around to support ent and maybe GnarlFox from being suspected as the inner goony and Buddha could claim he was the first to do what must be done and kills the God Father (You).

The dynamic between ent and lethe would certainly make for a chaotic time.

If I'm wrong about you being the God Father, and I truly hope I'm not wrong, then I imagine the Town probably should consider that lethe is the GF and ent the inner Goony. And that one might try to sacrifice the other.

If however you prove to be the God Father then I STRONGLY urge the Townies to follow through by putting Buddha to Block.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 12:15 AM
This.
Motherfucking.
Game!

If I end up killing Light Leak as well as ferrus I'm not posting anymore. At all.
I'd hate to kill two townies.

THIS FUCKING GAME!!!!!!!

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 12:25 AM
lethe
Please consider the post above going back to Sappho mentioning being PMed
I also ask you now to vote for Light Leak.
Sappho
If Light Leak proves to be the God Father then I Strongly urge you to Vote for Buddha on Day 6
I also ask you now to vote for Light Leak.
ent
If Light Leak proves to be the God Father then I Strongly urge you to Vote for Buddha on Day 6
I also ask you now to vote for Light Leak.
GnarlFox
If Light Leak proves to be the God Father then I Strongly urge you to Vote for Buddha on Day 6
I also ask you now to vote for Light Leak.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 12:31 AM
I don't know if Light Leak is mafia.

I know for certain I'm townie. I know for certain OrionzRevenge is townie. I am voting for whoever he says, no matter what. I said it yesterday. I said it today. If I survive, I'll say it tomorrow.

I want to hear from Light Leak and Sappho.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 12:35 AM
Light Leak (2)
------------
Buddha
OrionzRevenge

Buddha
07-01-2015, 12:40 AM
<drunk>

Orionz: I'm with you. No matter what.
if we're the only two townies left... against one Godfather. I'm with you.

If I turn out to have been the Godfather all along. I'd deserve to be hated by the whole forum.
I am plain townie. We two can win this if we vote together.

My reputation, as a real person, is on the line here. Let's win this fucking game!!!
Let's win it!!!

</drunk>

Viva la revolucion!

Buddha
07-01-2015, 12:49 AM
Sappho

Me or Light Leak. Pick your side.
No more hiding.

Bring it.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 01:01 AM
Light Leak

Do you get it? I am saying to the entire forum: "I it turns out I have lied in this maffia game.... I will hae gone too far and I deserve the scorn of ever single person on this forum. I will deserve to be ignored forever, by everybpdy. I will fully expect, and will fully deserve, everybodies scorn. Be the mafia or townie. Be they playing in this game, or not. Because I'll have gone too far.

I will never post a sinle other post on this entire forum if it turns out I am mafia.

Are you willing to claim the same?

Buddha
07-01-2015, 01:03 AM
Light Leak

I'm willing to change m vote. If you make a hard promise.

Let's hear something...

Buddha
07-01-2015, 01:17 AM
How about this promise, Light Leak...
I'm I'm mafia, and you're not... you don't make a single post in the next year.
I'm I'm mafia (which I'm not).... and you're not.... you don't make another post on this forum for a whole year.

What say you?

Light Leak
07-01-2015, 02:17 AM
Buddha - You want a promise?

Ok, I promise not to post on the forum for a year if I turn out to be mafia.

How's that?

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 02:26 AM
ent

Pleas take your vote off of lethe and vote Light Leak

Buddha is obviously the inner Goony. Once Light leak Proves to be the God Father everyone will know you're Townie.

GnarlFox
07-01-2015, 02:38 AM
There has to be a valid reason for you not getting voted off last night OrionzRevenge. I would guess that there is only one Mafia member left and it's the Godfather which is a little scary. If that's the case, it puts all of our questioning and townie reads in question but it might not be the case either. The worst thing I could imagine is helium being a Mafia Godfather. Imagine that! I really do doubt it though. I'd guess he simply didn't think that it would matter as much to be absent when there are more townies than Mafia. Taking the probable Godfather role into account because of it's inability to be read as Mafia, my modified list is as follows.

lethe
Sappho
Light Leak/Buddha
ent
helium
OrionzRevenge

Since Light Leak is still in my top three, I will tentatively vote for her. However, given that we are probably dealing with the Godfather and only the Godfather, I am very suspect of lethe. She is acting against the advice she gave me. When I refused to give up a strategy when I was being hounded she said that the best way to defend myself was to offer a strategy against another player that was stronger than mine but now when she's in this situation, she isn't offering much of anything to anyone. She also promoted going against the quiet ones and then became one herself. Had OrionzRevenge been taken by the Mafia last night I might have a different interpretation. As it stands, I don't trust lethe. Buddha, I don't understand why you would message PM someone at all. That seems really strange to me and the reasoning doesn't really make sense to me. You're only moving up slightly on my list because I trusted you before but I can't shake that it seems rather odd.

Another thing:

We shouldn't forget possible reasons for Hephaestus being killed off. He was uniting townies and wasn't afraid to argue with anyone; also, his reasoning may have been the most consistent of all of us. It's also likely that Mafia members could have popped up in his list of those to target:



I think that if my fellow townies want to win, they should restrict consideration to the remaining five:

Light Leak
Buddha
P-O
Sappho
helium

Of those, Sappho, P-O and helium are on my short list. But I've got no reason to believe any of them are town aligned.

Which leaves us with: Light Leak, Buddha, Sappho, and helium. We can pretty safely assume helium isn't Mafia though it's still a possibility.

GnarlFox
07-01-2015, 02:47 AM
@Buddha - You want a promise?

Ok, I promise not to post on the forum for a year if I turn out to be mafia.

How's that?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yaTCXcvTGY

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 02:57 AM
Since we've confirmed that P-O was mafia scum I'm even more suspicious of lethe now due to P-Os day one actions and her shenanigans with the ferrus vote.

Locked and loaded.

Oops, Damn, I'm sorry dude. Thought I remembered you voting for lethe

Just Vote for Light Today
and then for Buddha Day 6

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 03:12 AM
There has to be a valid reason for you not getting voted off last night OrionzRevenge.....

Gnarl

The only rational reason is that I wouldn't be able to detect (GF) the prime suspects as of last night.
And that I wouldn't think to investigate a regular Maf I trusted that would indicate:

Buddha
ent
you

It could also mean that lethe is the GF and LL were innocent. BUT I HAVE NO CONFIDENCE IN THAT THEORY

Start reading at post 67 where Buddha is admitting to trying to have a PM chat with Sappho
and follow through to where I asked you to Vote LL today and Buddha Day 6 when I'm not here.

If we don't prove Light Leak is the GF first things will go to shit when I'm not there because it will leave room to speculate about who it might be.

Once GF is known it can't be lethe.
Obviously Buddha is the inner Goony so you and ent wont be suspect.

You know the BatShit Meter hasn't failed me yet. I've had your back. I really need you to hold your vote on Light Leak.

GnarlFox
07-01-2015, 04:21 AM
OrionzRevenge

I went back and read the posts your suggested. Buddha trying to get into contact with Sappho privately is a very strange move. He's also professing that he will always vote for who you suggest which makes me think he's trying to hide within the votes. His promise that he won't post anymore if he turns up Mafia doesn't mean anything to me either. It just reeks of desperation.

lethe
07-01-2015, 06:08 AM
There has to be a valid reason for you not getting voted off last night OrionzRevenge. I would guess that there is only one Mafia member left and it's the Godfather which is a little scary. If that's the case, it puts all of our questioning and townie reads in question but it might not be the case either. The worst thing I could imagine is helium being a Mafia Godfather. Imagine that! I really do doubt it though. I'd guess he simply didn't think that it would matter as much to be absent when there are more townies than Mafia. Taking the probable Godfather role into account because of it's inability to be read as Mafia, my modified list is as follows.

lethe
Sappho
Light Leak/Buddha
ent
helium
OrionzRevenge

Since Light Leak is still in my top three, I will tentatively vote for her. However, given that we are probably dealing with the Godfather and only the Godfather, I am very suspect of lethe. She is acting against the advice she gave me. When I refused to give up a strategy when I was being hounded she said that the best way to defend myself was to offer a strategy against another player that was stronger than mine but now when she's in this situation, she isn't offering much of anything to anyone. She also promoted going against the quiet ones and then became one herself. Had OrionzRevenge been taken by the Mafia last night I might have a different interpretation. As it stands, I don't trust lethe. Buddha, I don't understand why you would message PM someone at all. That seems really strange to me and the reasoning doesn't really make sense to me. You're only moving up slightly on my list because I trusted you before but I can't shake that it seems rather odd.

Another thing:

We shouldn't forget possible reasons for Hephaestus being killed off. He was uniting townies and wasn't afraid to argue with anyone; also, his reasoning may have been the most consistent of all of us. It's also likely that Mafia members could have popped up in his list of those to target:



Which leaves us with: Light Leak, Buddha, Sappho, and helium. We can pretty safely assume helium isn't Mafia though it's still a possibility.


Going against quiet ones is an early game strategy. And I already explained why I was happy being a quiet target while we had to lynch Utisz. Same strategy for not voting and being quiet after Orion verified my innocence.

I didn't want to end up like Heph. Still don't.

Also, I think it's strange of Buddha to announce only voting what Orion votes. Believing Orion townie and believing Orions investigation results doesn't mean believing Orion the wisest voter.

Also, if there is not a godfather, what else could we be facing?

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 06:24 AM
Light Leak

I want you to convince me of your innocence.
It is possible that I'm being played for a fool
GnarlFox
For now vote blank please.
ent
Wait on voting.
lethe
What are your speculations as to perhaps that Sappho threw Buddha under the bus and is in fact the GF?
I now longer suspect you at all. I really need your help. Be the Most Dangerous.
Sappho
I think you might be the GF. Please convince me elsewise.
Buddha
I think you almost made me see what I wanted to see. You are a really smart guy. Why admit you PMed Sappho?


I think perhaps LL just honestly relented to the suspicions and I was too quick to judge and see what I wanted to see.

If I kill LL and she is innocent then we go to day 6 with the GF still in play.
I look like a dead fool and my inner circle of Gnarl and ent aren't protected at all buy my voucher for them. Then the situation would be:

GnarlFox -- Could be GF
ent -- Could be GF
lethe -- Could be GF
Sappho -- Could be the GF
Buddha -- Might even with Sappho's help get out of being the inner Goony


Light Leak and Sappho:

Your lives and the whole game are on the line. I need to be convinced of you innocence. I don't want to kill an innocent that leads to a slaughter.


BLANK VOTE

lethe
07-01-2015, 06:25 AM
Possible reasons mafia didn't kill Orion last night:

- Orion is lying, is mafia

- one of his confirmed innocents (or trusted ones) is actually godfather. (I really wish orion had investigated a trusted one instead of helium. Helium is useless to us as a verified townie if he continues to be absent)

- they want us to think Orion is lying and/or his confirmed innocent is godfather.

Which explains why they would choose heph. I'm more likely to distrust/attack Orion, AND I'm more likely to be suspected/targeted than Heph. It makes either me or Orion look guilty.

I know I'm innocent. I can't take the risk of potentially killing the cop so must assume Orion is telling the truth.

So I'm heavily considering the possibility one of Orions "trusted" is mafia. I'm also thinking that the mafia will try heavily to get me lynched during the day.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 06:36 AM
:facepalm:

Oh Shit!

lethe
07-01-2015, 06:37 AM
The more I think on it, the more I think the mafia want me dead.

I think they can't afford the risk of keeping Orion alive after tonight. They know if he turns up honest, is be least likely to trust his unverified innocents. They know leaving me as the only surviving confirmed innocent while leaving Orion alive makes me the prime suspect for godfather. (Btw, if I WERE godfather I wouldn't do)

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 06:47 AM
The more I think on it, the more I think the mafia want me dead.

I think they can't afford the risk of keeping Orion alive after tonight. They know if he turns up honest, is be least likely to trust his unverified innocents. They know leaving me as the only surviving confirmed innocent while leaving Orion alive makes me the prime suspect for godfather. (Btw, if I WERE godfather I wouldn't do)

Beside Gnarl and ent not being investigated
there is also two that Heph about equally suspected

Sappho
Light Leak

Not for me but Heph

Which is more likely to be the GF using the Info since post #67

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 07:05 AM
I've said as much as can be said on this matter without breaking the rules.


If I say "Investigate me, then", will this convince you that I am as townie as it gets, or will it merely create the false impression of my being the Godfather?


I am flattered by your misconception of my expertise, but I can assure you I know nothing about the game except for what the page, to which Dot linked, says about the different roles. My botchery, unfortunately, is sincere.


I would fear that indeed. Neither do I want to be hanged.

You have been reading what I wrote to Buddha and not to you. I didn't realize this earlier.

GnarlFox
07-01-2015, 07:17 AM
Going against quiet ones is an early game strategy. And I already explained why I was happy being a quiet target while we had to lynch Utisz. Same strategy for not voting and being quiet after Orion verified my innocence.

I didn't want to end up like Heph. Still don't.

Also, I think it's strange of Buddha to announce only voting what Orion votes. Believing Orion townie and believing Orions investigation results doesn't mean believing Orion the wisest voter.

Also, if there is not a godfather, what else could we be facing?

Okay, nobody wants to die. Except Buddha is saying he doesn't care. Accepting someone's suggestion without thinking about it doesn't make sense. The announcement is weird and doesn't make me trust him any more.

If there is no Godfather, I don't know what we are facing. Maybe there is another role that makes the Mafia think that they didn't need to kill him last night or there is someone that is being trusted and they gambled on not being investigated last night. I suspect the next Mafia kill will help us understand why they ignored OrionzRevenge last night. We may be getting ahead of ourselves by thinking that OrionzRevenge was spared last night because there is only a Godfather left. There could be two normal Mafia, one normal and a Godfather, or simply a Godfather. I don't know other roles, but there could be some other role instead or as well. The Mafia must have thought they could hedge their bets by ignoring him for one night and decided to go after Hephaestus. I'm thinking that there has to be a Godfather because otherwise, after two Mafia kills, they should be sweating bullets at the thought of being investigated.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 07:25 AM
lethe

I'm need you to give me your speculations as to who the GF is and why.

It is very important that you help me with this.

As it stands it is a three-way toss-up in my mind, and I have to take a shot at the GF one way or another else it is going to be a slaughter.

lethe
07-01-2015, 07:25 AM
Using all the posts....Between sappho and light leak I'm more suspicious of light leak.

But that's mostly for light leak pushing the idea of godfather, specifically that I'm the godfather. The frame up is a little too convenient and quick. This could be reactionary, though. I'll know more later.

Between everyone? I'm mostly suspicious of the two you said you would defend unverified. As I said before.






But

lethe
07-01-2015, 07:34 AM
I'm not convinced we have to panic about targeting a godfather at this point.

It only matters if he has investigated innocent already, since Orion will likely die tonight.

Since it's just me, and I know for fact I'm vanilla, I have the luxury of not freaking about it. From my perspective, it looks like mafia trying to trick us into lynching a confirmed innocent, to lessen the advantage of the cop.

I'm assuming there is another mafia beside godfather. I'd rather target him/her than risk lynching an townie.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 07:43 AM
Okay, nobody wants to die. Except Buddha is saying he doesn't care. Accepting someone's suggestion without thinking about it doesn't make sense. The announcement is weird and doesn't make me trust him any more.

If there is no Godfather, I don't know what we are facing. Maybe there is another role that makes the Mafia think that they didn't need to kill him last night or there is someone that is being trusted and they gambled on not being investigated last night. I suspect the next Mafia kill will help us understand why they ignored OrionzRevenge last night. We may be getting ahead of ourselves by thinking that OrionzRevenge was spared last night because there is only a Godfather left. There could be two normal Mafia, one normal and a Godfather, or simply a Godfather. I don't know other roles, but there could be some other role instead or as well. The Mafia must have thought they could hedge their bets by ignoring him for one night and decided to go after Hephaestus. I'm thinking that there has to be a Godfather because otherwise, after two Mafia kills, they should be sweating bullets at the thought of being investigated.

Dude, I'm certain there is a GF in Play. Buddha is a regular Maf.

Buddha basically implicated himself after Sappho said some player PM her, and said she was not interested in talking.

He also just prior to this revelation announced he was going to take the imitative and voted for LL

When I spoke with LL she said she wouldn't resist the lynch so then the town would know for sure.

This make me think she was going to sacrifice herself to give Buddha creditability.

But I started thinking I may have wrongly seen Sappho as innocently reporting this, and that maybe she was the one sacrificing Buddha.

When I reached out to lethe for guidance (Who I had decided wasn't likely the GF) she isn't cooperating.

What do you think?
Also, I'm a bit surprised that you aren't more leaning towards your attacker LL?

Sappho
07-01-2015, 07:45 AM
Sappho
If Light Leak proves to be the God Father then I Strongly urge you to Vote for Buddha on Day 6
I also ask you now to vote for Light Leak.
Why in this order and not the other way around? I still have no reading on Light Leak, but very serious grounds to suspect Buddha.


Sappho

Me or Light Leak. Pick your side.
No more hiding.

Bring it.
As I said before (http://forums.intpcomplex.com/showthread.php?2601-Mafia-4-Day-5&p=117766&viewfull=1#post117766). Either you didn't see my nomination or you didn't want to see it.


I will never post a sinle other post on this entire forum if it turns out I am mafia.

Are you willing to claim the same?


Buddha - You want a promise?

Ok, I promise not to post on the forum for a year if I turn out to be mafia.

How's that?

:wtf:

I trust Light Leak more in this matter, however.



Sappho
I think you might be the GF. Please convince me elsewise.
How about you tell me what I have done now to suddenly rouse such unwarranted suspicion?

And what can I say about my innocence which I haven't already said? Perhaps I am too ingenuous putting everything out in the open such as Buddha's bizzare PM in the hope of clarifying the entire situation; but it seems that no matter what I do, it is twisted to falsely incriminate me.


Also, I think it's strange of Buddha to announce only voting what Orion votes. Believing Orion townie and believing Orions investigation results doesn't mean believing Orion the wisest voter.




I'm assuming there is another mafia beside godfather. I'd rather target him/her than risk lynching an townie.

Yet two more reasons to vote for Buddha.

lethe
07-01-2015, 08:00 AM
I didn't give you guidance, Orion? Post 107 and 108 are my thoughts on the matter you asked.

No, I'm not going to just pick one of the two people you suggested. It is not narrowed down to that in my mind, and if that is the only type of answer you will consider "guidance", you need another term.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 08:01 AM
I'm not convinced we have to panic about targeting a godfather at this point.

It only matters if he has investigated innocent already, since Orion will likely die tonight.

Since it's just me, and I know for fact I'm vanilla, I have the luxury of not freaking about it. From my perspective, it looks like mafia trying to trick us into lynching a confirmed innocent, to lessen the advantage of the cop.

I'm assuming there is another mafia beside godfather. I'd rather target him/her than risk lynching an townie.

I'm starting to think that I have been triple mind fucked by GnarlFox and Buddha.

Buddha is dead meat waiting to die. without getting the GF to day it'll be all to shit Day 6

I think I gave Utisz too much credit about the smoking gun.

I'm starting to think LL is just frivolous in suspecting someone and Utisz is the one that tried to buy cred by offing GF (GnarlFox).

But why the heel would you do that on Day 2????

You would always have a GF in play, right?

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 08:05 AM
I didn't give you guidance, Orion? Post 107 and 108 are my thoughts on the matter you asked.

No, I'm not going to just pick one of the two people you suggested. It is not narrowed down to that in my mind, and if that is the only type of answer you will consider "guidance", you need another term.

We cross posted please give the one above this every consideration.
Hemph said ent or GnarlFox were suspect.

I know you suspect ent but if Gnarl is GF and Buddha is certainly the sacrifice.

Buddha pointed me at Sappho and Light Leak. While GnarlFox tried to point me at you. Even though LL was the one who attacked him. He is also very savvy about the game but very quite.

lethe
07-01-2015, 08:09 AM
Orion, why are you so focused on godfather?

Ask yourself what difference it makes if the mafia we hope to lynch today is godfather or not.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 08:09 AM
Buddha is dead meat waiting to die. without getting the GF to day it'll be all to shit Day 6

Why? Why should one not get a goon first? Besides, there is still a valid chance Buddha may be the Godfather himself!

He'd even be able to wiggle himself out of his spectacular promise not to post again if he is mafia – on the grounds that Dot's initial PM to him didn't say 'mafia', but 'Godfather'...

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 08:19 AM
Why? Why should one not get a goon first? Besides, there is still a valid chance Buddha may be the Godfather himself!

He'd even be able to wiggle himself out of his spectacular promise not to post again if he is mafia – on the grounds that Dot's initial PM to him didn't say 'mafia', but 'Godfather'...

This is true, GnarlFox or Buddha could be the GF but I doubt Buddha's statement has much value.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 08:21 AM
Orion, why are you so focused on godfather?

Ask yourself what difference it makes if the mafia we hope to lynch today is godfather or not.


Why? Why should one not get a goon first? Besides, there is still a valid chance Buddha may be the Godfather himself!

He'd even be able to wiggle himself out of his spectacular promise not to post again if he is mafia – on the grounds that Dot's initial PM to him didn't say 'mafia', but 'Godfather'...

Who would you guys suspect most of being the GF on Day 6 ?
Because it could be anyone remaining?

lethe
07-01-2015, 08:32 AM
If we assume you will not be giving us any new townie names tomorrow...


Unless the godfather has already investigated innocent, he is the same as any other mafia.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 08:34 AM
If we assume you will not be giving us any new townie names tomorrow...


Unless the godfather has already investigated innocent, he is the same as any other mafia.

That not an answer. Who would you suspect most?

lethe
07-01-2015, 08:35 AM
So, unless we want to start killing investigated innocents this round, we are simply hunting mafia right now. The godfather role doesn't come into play.

It would be nice, sure, if the one we caught was godfather. But that was true every round.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 08:36 AM
GnarlFox

I see you your are watching this. I need your input too. Why is lethe the highest threat?

lethe
07-01-2015, 08:38 AM
Dude, I already told you my suspicions!

They aren't any different for "godfather" than regular mafia.
Because unless Helium is it, it doesn't matter.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 08:39 AM
So, unless we want to start killing investigated innocents this round, we are simply hunting mafia right now. The godfather role doesn't come into play.

It would be nice, sure, if the one we caught was godfather. But that was true every round.

I would like to get the Unknown Maf today because we already know who the sacrifice is, and I'm here to help. Don't you want it?


Why do I get the feeling I have 3 Mafs in play?

Sappho
07-01-2015, 08:43 AM
I would like to get the Unknown Maf today because we already know who the sacrifice is, and I'm here to help. Don't you want it?
This is the same fuzzy logic as behind wanting to keep Utisz around. Why not get the one that is most suspicious on all accounts (with a viable chance of killing the Godfather) instead of potentially killing a townie now?



Why do I get the feeling I have 3 Mafs in play?
I think you're second-guessing. Three remaining mafiosi would strike me as an awful lot.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 08:48 AM
This is the same fuzzy logic as behind wanting to keep Utisz around. Why not get the one that is most suspicious on all accounts (with a viable chance of killing the Godfather) instead of potentially killing a townie now?


I think you're second-guessing. Three remaining mafiosi would strike me as an awful lot.

Sometimes you respond to me in a very obscure way, such as with inquisition. And suddenly we have all this biting clarity.

No Fuzzy Logic about Utisz, it was a ruse to see how people would react when I said I was getting hot on the trail.

Funny thing is buddha got all stupid actting at that time. But we now know who buddha is. Who are you?

Sappho
07-01-2015, 08:57 AM
Sometimes you respond to me in a very obscure way, such as with inquisition. And suddenly we have all this biting clarity.

No Fuzzy Logic about Utisz, it was a ruse to see how people would react when I said I was getting hot on the trail.

Funny thing is buddha got all stupid actting at that time. But we now know who buddha is. Who are you?

Why do you keep asking me the same question over and over? I don't know how often I can repeat that I am as vanilla townie as it gets! Bloody hell!

If your proposition about keeping Utisz was a veritable ruse, and you're indeed sure about Buddha, let's haul him in now.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:02 AM
GnarlFox

I really need you to speak with me dude.
Why is lethe #1 on your list.

Because I'm not sure what the fuck I got here.

I think maybe I need to stop taking this game so seriously and start taking the advice of the guys I have been with all along.

What the hell it just pretend live anyway.

I think why we still have the advantage of numbers and the will we should Kill lethe
Then when I'm gone kill Soppho
and last kill Buddha

Sappho and lethe have been thick as thieves from the beginning

I both have a hell of a lot stronger case against then they had against ent.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:03 AM
Why do you keep asking me the same question over and over? I don't know how often I can repeat that I am as vanilla townie as it gets! Bloody hell!

If your proposition about keeping Utisz was a veritable ruse, and you're indeed sure about Buddha, let's haul him in now.

We know we have him, I don't know who you and lethe are but I have the numbers with me here to prevail is I have 3 mafs

GnarlFox
07-01-2015, 09:06 AM
We cross posted please give the one above this every consideration.
Hemph said ent or GnarlFox were suspect.

I know you suspect ent but if Gnarl is GF and Buddha is certainly the sacrifice.

Buddha pointed me at Sappho and Light Leak. While GnarlFox tried to point me at you. Even though LL was the one who attacked him. He is also very savvy about the game but very quite.

You are convinced that there is a Godfather but you are also convinced that the people you have investigated can't be one. Why is that? Light Leak may suspect me, but I have already addressed this. If I can understand the reasoning and do nothing about it, well then, them being against me is something that I cannot change and won't focus on. Sometimes people have points that make perfect sense if you were the one on the other side. I have mostly ignored it because I know what I am and when I tried to prove it, all I got was a huge hassle. You remember your fight against Hephaestus and how much energy it took. Well, mine wasn't as bad but I don't want it to flare up again. Sometimes things can be said within a single post, and having more does me no favors. As for pointing out lethe, I somewhat misapplied what she had said and she pointed that out to me. She was being more quiet and she had wanted to focus on quiet ones. The problem here was misapplication because she wanted that at the beginning not now. Also, she had not pointed out strategies when she was answering accusations which seemed to go against what she had said to me before. She points to me, and I point to her. I'm not convinced she is the Godfather, there are many that could be. There is only one way to be certain of anything but that can obviously come with a cost. It's automatic to wonder if someone is Mafia when you know you're not. So, I'm not going to argue against that even if it puts suspicion on me, because I do it too and everyone should too if they find something suspicious about it. I'm not going to argue with things I agree with even if what the people are saying brings suspicion on me. I will try to address it most times, but that is all, because coming up with a reason for it not to be applicable is stupid, untrue, and hurts the town. So I will not argue with lethe when she says that the people you've been trusting might be the Godfather, because it is true. It would be devastating for someone you trust or is voting with you to be Mafia and as she points out, it would have made more sense to investigate someone besides helium. In that aspect, I think she's right about the Mafia trying to get rid of her because she reasons like Hephaestus reasons. That doesn't make her innocent; it makes her either be great for the town or great for the Mafia. It's hard to separate what people are saying, it's influence, and what they want to get out of it. That's all. This is one reason why I don't want to agree implicitly with anyone or give out a list that is super specific. I've done that in the past. It will not happen again. All it does is give the Mafia predictability.

As for lethe, Light Leak, Sappho, and Buddha, Buddha has been acting the most strangely today and saying so doesn't mean that I'm sacrificing him. Did everyone sacrifice MacGuffin? No, at least two Mafia voted for him, but most were likely townies. Only we know what we are. So unless people are very certain that they can read someone, they should never place more trust in them than themselves. As I've said before, P-O wasn't my prime suspect at the time, but he was up on the list and so I voted with others. It makes sense to vote with people to vote out whom you suspect and I've voted for Light Leak because I do suspect her. That doesn't mean that there aren't others I suspect more. I mention this because I could be given some credit for voting for P-O, but really if you must know it wouldn't have happened had people not started pointing things out. But it can happen the other way, and has, like the people who voted out ferrus but they didn't individually sacrifice him. I'm explaining this because I think it might be helpful to consider. There's a lot of this or that, or this person or that person when we should be looking at the flow and consistency of people and how they post. How do they change? What reaction do they get?

And lastly, just because I ask questions or list people as suspicious doesn't mean that I will vote strictly to this as that is a losing strategy. Getting to get people to react is a good strategy in itself sometimes as it tells more than just what they say.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 09:11 AM
Sappho and lethe have been thick as thieves from the beginning

This is nonsense. The only time lethe and I were on the same page were on Day 1, when we both suspected ent. I have since mentioned numerous times that I have become as close to 100% certain of his innocence as one can get.

I also said in the last two rounds that lethe was one of my prime suspects. If I was an ally of lethe's, I'd sure be a bad one.


We know we have him, I don't know who you and lethe are but I have the numbers with me here to prevail is I have 3 mafs

Care to explain? Why would there have be three?

– You still have given no valid reasons for not killing Buddha immediately. Why?

Buddha
07-01-2015, 09:18 AM
I am townie. I got a little drunk last night and a little over-involved.

The only hypothesis that I'm reasonably certain is impossible is that helium is the one and only remaining mafia godfather.
If that was true he wouldn't have been able to vote for Hephaestus yesterday. We'd have had no lynching at all. If he is mafia then there must be at least one other mafia besides him remaining.

I have nothing to go on, other than voting for those who seem like the most composed players at this point. I don't think the mafia would be confused and erratic about what to do at this point. They'd have a clear strategy in mind.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:23 AM
This is nonsense. The only time lethe and I were on the same page were on Day 1, when we both suspected ent. I have since mentioned numerous times that I have become as close to 100% certain of his innocence as one can get.

I also said in the last two rounds that lethe was one of my prime suspects. If I was an ally of lethe's, I'd sure be a bad one.



Care to explain? Why would there have be three?

– You still have given no valid reasons for not killing Buddha immediately. Why?

If you could provide me with the quotes of you the last two rounds of you saying please. There doesn't have to be 3 in play. But I'm strongly going to suspect anyone that wants to wait till I'm not here to look for 4th.

I understand if innocent you might be afraid of doing this. But I need to find the 4th. today so the vote will be an obvious one for Buddha when I am not.

Anyone not helping to do that is on the hit list.

GnarlFox
07-01-2015, 09:23 AM
GnarlFox

I see you your are watching this. I need your input too. Why is lethe the highest threat?

She's up there but there is no numbering system for anyone right now. The reason I suspect her is because she is an enigma and hasn't offered strategies until poked. Then she comes up with very good points. I don't know what she is but I can't read her.

Before today, I would have chosen to gone after helium whenever there was a consensus because he could have been playing dead and been a Mafia member. In which case, we would have been screwed. Now that we know he's been inactive this whole time, I don't think that he would be Mafia.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:26 AM
I am townie. I got a little drunk last night and a little over-involved.

The only hypothesis that I'm reasonably certain is impossible is that helium is the one and only remaining mafia godfather.
If that was true he wouldn't have been able to vote for Hephaestus yesterday. We'd have had no lynching at all. If he is mafia then there must be at least one other mafia besides him remaining.

I have nothing to go on, other than voting for those who seem like the most composed players at this point. I don't think the mafia would be confused and erratic about what to do at this point. They'd have a clear strategy in mind.

I'm certain that you are dead meat waiting to die. But I'm in no rush to snap your neck.

lethe
07-01-2015, 09:34 AM
Let's try a different approach.

Orion: what do you think are all the possible reasons you weren't killed last night?

Everyone else?

Also to everyone: In what ways would being godfather have changed how mafia would have played last round?

How many mafia players do you think were in each vote to lynch innocents? Do you think those old vote lists matter?

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:37 AM
She's up there but there is no numbering system for anyone right now. The reason I suspect her is because she is an enigma and hasn't offered strategies until poked. Then she comes up with very good points. I don't know what she is but I can't read her.

Before today, I would have chosen to gone after helium whenever there was a consensus because he could have been playing dead and been a Mafia member. In which case, we would have been screwed. Now that we know he's been inactive this whole time, I don't think that he would be Mafia.

Thanks.

I only know that we need to find the 4th. while I'm here to vote. Buddha is obvious for day 6 when I'm gone.

I'm waiting to see Sppho's quotes where she has sided against lethe the two lat rounds.

lethe only wants to do Buddha today and take control tomorrow.

Buddha will be the obvious target on day 6. We need to find the 4th, while we have the numbers.

We have time for people to come to grips with the fact that I'm going to make every effort to get the 4th. today even if i have to do it on this slightest hunch.

I really looking at lethe now. No one could say I wasn't justified for killing her for her behavior in ferrus v Utisz.

I'm starting to get tired of not making a mistake. It is just a game.

And if people don't wanna play ball while I'm around, they'll be gone before me.


Just hang on man, I wasn't prepared for the mind fuck they are giving me.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 09:38 AM
If you could provide me with the quotes of you the last two rounds of you saying please.

Day 3 (http://forums.intpcomplex.com/showthread.php?2582-Mafia-4-Day-3&p=117190#post117190)

Day 4 (http://forums.intpcomplex.com/showthread.php?2592-Mafia-4-Day-4&p=117279#post117279)

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:41 AM
Let's try a different approach.

Orion: what do you think are all the possible reasons you weren't killed last night?

Everyone else?

Also to everyone: In what ways would being godfather have changed how mafia would have played last round?

How many mafia players do you think were in each vote to lynch innocents? Do you think those old vote lists matter?

Let's try this approach: if my justifications for thinking you innocent of ferrus death are wrong, as you say they are,

and I think the reasons you gave don't make sense, then I really should search much further for my 4th. Maf.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 09:43 AM
I'm a little unclear about one thing.

Hephaestus suspected Sappho yesterday. Then, for no visible reason in the thread, he started trusting her.

I reach out to her today and send her a PM asking to chat to her about the other players. I'm hoping to find out what she said to Hephaestus that made him trust her. She refuses this and instead starts to use the fact that I'm trying to talk to her to make me appear more suspect.

Why would I want to talk to anyone if I am mafia? I'd already have all the information and I wouldn't reach out to a townie who was already suspicious of me.

lethe
07-01-2015, 09:45 AM
What are you taking about, Orion?

"Lethe only wants to do Buddha today"?

All I said was that I thought some of his behavior was strange. I spent much more time talking about who else was suspicious.

You are off. I don't know what game you are playing, but it's not helping us here.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:45 AM
Day 3 (http://forums.intpcomplex.com/showthread.php?2582-Mafia-4-Day-3&p=117190#post117190)

Day 4 (http://forums.intpcomplex.com/showthread.php?2592-Mafia-4-Day-4&p=117279#post117279)

Ok, you've convinced me. If I decided to lynch lethe would you agree to vote for it?

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:51 AM
What are you taking about, Orion?

"Lethe only wants to do Buddha today"?

All I said was that I thought some of his behavior was strange. I spent much more time talking about who else was suspicious.

You are off. I don't know what game you are playing, but it's not helping us here.

You want to lynch the known today instead of helping me find the 4th. because you don't want me to look for the 4th. I wont be here on the Day 6.

From a Townie POV, not making every effort to support the person Heph supported as the Back-Up Cop is very telling.

You had many chances and tired of caring too much if I make a mistake.

lethe

We know Buddha is next for day 6

Townies add your vote to mine.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 09:53 AM
lethe

Sappho
07-01-2015, 09:54 AM
You want to lynch the known today instead of helping me find the 4th. because you don't want me to look for the 4th. I wont be here on the Day 6.

From a Townie POV, not making every effort to support the person Heph supported as the Back-Up Cop is very telling.

You had many chances and tired of caring too much if I make a mistake.

lethe

We know Buddha is next for day 6

Townies add your vote to mine.

I'll change my vote to lethe if I get the assurance of others voting for Buddha in the next round.

lethe
07-01-2015, 09:57 AM
You want to lynch the known today instead of helping me find the 4th. because you don't want me to look for the 4th. I wont be here on the Day 6.

From a Townie POV, not making every effort to support the person Heph supported as the Back-Up Cop is very telling.

You had many chances and tired of caring too much if I make a mistake.

lethe

We know Buddha is next for day 6

Townies add your vote to mine.


The "known"? What are you talking about? At what point did we agree that Buddha is the "known" Maybe in your own head!

I've described my suspicions. I'm trying to discuss them instead of just throwing out votes and telling others how to vote. Why not try reasoning things out? Reading?

lethe
07-01-2015, 10:00 AM
This, right here, is EXACTLY why the mafia didn't kill Orion last night.

There goes the advantage of the investigations.

Even if you suspect me, is it worth the risk?

Buddha
07-01-2015, 10:04 AM
Sappho: You have yet to give me a good reason for suspecting me.

What if we all vote for me today then for you tomorrow?
If you are mafia I'd rather get it over with today because we may not have 3 days of play left.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 10:05 AM
The "known"? What are you talking about? At what point did we agree that Buddha is the "known" Maybe in your own head!
You're disputing that Buddha is suspicious? You can't be serious.


I've described my suspicions. I'm trying to discuss them instead of just throwing out votes and telling others how to vote. Why not try reasoning things out? Reading?


Even if you suspect me, is it worth the risk?

Too many fluffy questions that look like an attempt at distraction.

lethe

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 10:10 AM
Sappho ent GnarlFox Light Leak

If you are a loyal Townie then hear this.

For being complicit with P-O and Buddha in the killing of the Town Cop (ferrus)
For being most highly suspected of being the God Father of the Mafia Scum
For attempting at every turn to obstruct the Back-Up cop on the last day the Mob will let me live

I do by demand that you cast your vote to Lynch lethe

On Day six you will then Lynch Buddah

It is possible you might still have a Maf left in the game at that point. If so you should lynch Sappho.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 10:11 AM
Sappho: You have yet to give me a good reason for suspecting me.

I have given numerous reasons but I shall list them again if it pleases you.

1) You proposed an in retrospect dubious mock strategy on Day 1. I took it at face value and trusted you.

2) You were surprisingly quick to abandon this alliance and targeted me, a genuine innocent (which you full well know).

3) When I realised what you were on about, and began to put it out in the open, you PM'd me in a curious fashion – and you were not willing to say why you would have to do so privately. Your meagre excuse of a PM being more immediate than a forum post – come on! How would a PM be more immediate? It takes as many if not more clicks to send one than to do a Quick Post. You are not fooling me.

4) I have given more reasons for my innocence today than you have on all other days combined.

5) Your voting shenanigans on previous days.

6) Your desperate bid "not to post again if you're mafia" against Light Leak.

7) OrionzRevenge, whom I trust, is equally convinced of your guilt.

Hence, you're mafia or my grandmother is Empress Maria Theresia.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 10:12 AM
Sappho ent GnarlFox Light Leak

If you are a loyal Townie then hear this.

For being complicit with P-O and Buddha in the killing of the Town Cop (ferrus)
For being most highly suspected of being the God Father of the Mafia Scum
For attempting at every turn to obstruct the Back-Up cop on the last day the Mob will let me live

I do by demand that you cast your vote to Lynch lethe

On Day six you will then Lynch Buddah

It is possible you might still have a Maf left in the game at that point. If so you should lynch Sappho.

I agree. If Buddha is innocent, lynch me for all I care. I am fully convinced of his guilt now.

lethe
07-01-2015, 10:13 AM
You're disputing that Buddha is suspicious? You can't be serious.





Too many fluffy questions that look like an attempt at distraction.

lethe

I am not defending Buddha. He is suspicious as I said before. He's not the only one.

I'm saying i didn't agree to vote for him. I was still trying to discuss what was happening and what was suspicious and possible theories.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 10:17 AM
I agree. If Buddha is innocent, lynch me for all I care. I am fully convinced of his guilt now.

Please under stand that I have to concern myself with my degree of residual suspicion, for the good of the town, for after I'm long gone.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 10:20 AM
Please under stand that I have to concern myself with my degree of residual suspicion, for the good of the town, for after I'm long gone.

I understand.

lethe
07-01-2015, 10:20 AM
You guys are being silly.

The mafia has tricked you into voting for the only vocal confirmed townie left. In a plot I pointed out earlier in this thread!

You are all assuming:
- there is a godfather (likely)
- he was investigated (consider the odds)
- of the two potential candidates, it's the one who participates

and, if all that is true, why would the mafia not kill orion?

Imagine if you are wrong and I'm not the godfather. What are you left with?

Buddha
07-01-2015, 10:25 AM
This makes little sense to me. I suspect the remaining mafia is one of the people who isn't being targetted right now.

I know that if lethe is innocent we lose the game. It will take us three days to untangle the rest of this mess.
First lethe dies, then me, then Sappho. We'll have lost.

I'd rather the vote be between me and Sappho today. I'll turn out innocent tomorrow and you'll have a day to rethink things.

Changing my vote to: Sappho even though I suspect Light Leak more.
Fully expecting to die as an innocent townie tonight.

lethe
07-01-2015, 10:26 AM
Or....

If you seriously believe that the godfather has been investigated, it's equal chance between me and helium. Helium is dead weight! Why risk me? What are you going to do in later rounds with a mute townie/potential mafia?


The mafia kill heph because I'm a better target for lynching. In one move they manage to eliminate both active confirmed townies and leave you stuck with an absent player and no more investigations coming.

In one round they eliminate all active players

lethe
07-01-2015, 10:28 AM
Sorry for that last out of place sentence

Buddha
07-01-2015, 10:40 AM
I have given numerous reasons but I shall list them again if it pleases you.

1) You proposed an in retrospect dubious mock strategy on Day 1. I took it at face value and trusted you.

2) You were surprisingly quick to abandon this alliance and targeted me, a genuine innocent (which you full well know).

3) When I realised what you were on about, and began to put it out in the open, you PM'd me in a curious fashion – and you were not willing to say why you would have to do so privately. Your meagre excuse of a PM being more immediate than a forum post – come on! How would a PM be more immediate? It takes as many if not more clicks to send one than to do a Quick Post. You are not fooling me.

4) I have given more reasons for my innocence today than you have on all other days combined.

5) Your voting shenanigans on previous days.

6) Your desperate bid "not to post again if you're mafia" against Light Leak.

7) OrionzRevenge, whom I trust, is equally convinced of your guilt.

Hence, you're mafia or my grandmother is Empress Maria Theresia.

Did you ever consider that I might just not be good at this game?
OrionzRevenge is a townie, and he's been all over the map this whole game as well.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 10:50 AM
You guys are being silly.

The mafia has tricked you into voting for the only vocal confirmed townie left. In a plot I pointed out earlier in this thread!

You are all assuming:
- there is a godfather (likely)
- he was investigated (consider the odds)
- of the two potential candidates, it's the one who participates

and, if all that is true, why would the mafia not kill orion?

Imagine if you are wrong and I'm not the godfather. What are you left with?

The Mob only let me live because they knew I couldn't detect the GF (Lethe) and they had a regular Maf that I wouldn't think to investigate (Buddah)

The reason they killed Heph is because they knew of his vast experience with this sort of situation.

Do Your Duty to the Town.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 10:52 AM
Imagine if you are wrong and I'm not the godfather. What are you left with?
In that case, Buddha is.


Did you ever consider that I might just not be good at this game?
OrionzRevenge is a townie, and he's been all over the map this whole game as well.

You're trying to deflect attention, not only by this fluff post but also by voting for me. I may change my vote to you if there are others willing to vote for you as well. There is undoubtedly a huge case against you.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 10:57 AM
This makes little sense to me. I suspect the remaining mafia is one of the people who isn't being targetted right now.

I know that if lethe is innocent we lose the game. It will take us three days to untangle the rest of this mess.
First lethe dies, then me, then Sappho. We'll have lost.

I'd rather the vote be between me and Sappho today. I'll turn out innocent tomorrow and you'll have a day to rethink things.

Changing my vote to: Sappho even though I suspect Light Leak more.
Fully expecting to die as an innocent townie tonight.

No, you are dead meat that will die after lethe.

TOWINES
I misstated myself in the DEATH WARRANT

lethe is complicit with P-O, Buddha, and Utisz in the death of the Town Cop (ferrus)

She is trying to reason now, but I have been trying to reason with her for two days and have gotten zilch.
She didn't even cast a vote to lynch P-O last eve,

Do your Duty to the Town

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 10:59 AM
lethe (2)
-------------------
Sappho
OrionzRevenge

lethe
07-01-2015, 11:02 AM
The Mob only let me live because they knew I couldn't detect the GF (Lethe) and they had a regular Maf that I wouldn't think to investigate (Buddah)

The reason they killed Heph is because they knew of his vast experience with this sort of situation.

Do Your Duty to the Town.

You seriously think that the mafia see heph's past experience and skill as a bigger threat than another cop investigation? I find that unlikely.

What makes you think they thought you wouldn't investigate Buddha?

Think! Why would they leave you alive?

Buddha
07-01-2015, 11:02 AM
In that case, Buddha is.

You're trying to deflect attention, not only by this fluff post but also by voting for me. I may change my vote to you if there are others willing to vote for you as well. There is undoubtedly a huge case against you.

If I was trying to deflect attention I'd not be voting for you. I'd stick with lethe.

There is a chance she is the Godfather. If she is we should only be concerned about her next round. I don't think it makes sense to hunt for the Godfather until the last one or two days otherwise we're playing right into the mafia's hand.

I think we should be hunting in the pool of people who aren't confirmed townies for now.

Since your vote for lethe is precipated on a block vote against me tomorrow I'd rather you switch over to voting for me today.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 11:05 AM
If I was trying to deflect attention I'd not be voting for you. I'd stick with lethe.

There is a chance she is the Godfather. If she is we should only be concerned about her next round. I don't think it makes sense to hunt for the Godfather until the last one or two days otherwise we're playing right into the mafia's hand.
Why?


I think we should be hunting in the pool of people who aren't confirmed townies for now.
Vote for lethe, then.


Since your vote for lethe is precipated on a block vote against me tomorrow I'd rather you switch over to voting for me today.
I will if others vote for you as well. But I am not going to throw away my vote, nor risk a tie which would result in no lynching of mafiosi today.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 11:07 AM
No, you are dead meat that will die after lethe.

TOWINES
I misstated myself in the DEATH WARRANT

lethe is complicit with P-O, Buddha, and Utisz in the death of the Town Cop (ferrus)

She is trying to reason now, but I have been trying to reason with her for two days and have gotten zilch.
She didn't even cast a vote to lynch P-O last eve,

Do your Duty to the Town

This is convincing enough for me. Sticking with lethe.

lethe
07-01-2015, 11:07 AM
Buddha actually makes a good point.

Consider:

If I am the godfather, what difference does it make which day you kill me?

On the other hand, if we kill off the other mafia, one of them MAY turn out to be the godfather. Then, we never have to risk a confirmed townie.

It only makes sense to attack confirmed townie AFTER we have killed the other mafia and none of them were godfather.

Why take the risk if you don't have to?

Buddha
07-01-2015, 11:12 AM
Why?

Because we lose the advantage of our cop investigations and gain nothing.


Vote for lethe, then.

If I do so I vote for my own lynching tomorrow.


I will if others vote for you as well. But I am not going to throw away my vote, nor risk a tie which would result in no lynching of mafiosi today.

Ok. I'll vote for me.
Now switch over.

I'm changing my vote to Buddha

Tally:

lethe (2)
* Sappho
* OrionzRevenge

Buddha (1)
* Buddha

Sappho
07-01-2015, 11:21 AM
If I do so I vote for my own lynching tomorrow.



Ok. I'll vote for me.
Now switch over.

I'm changing my vote to Buddha

Tally:

lethe (2)
* Sappho
* OrionzRevenge

Buddha (1)
* Buddha

Your 'reasoning' makes no sense. Why would you rather die today than tomorrow? To sacrifice yourself in order to save lethe?

Sticking with my vote.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 11:27 AM
lethe ask that you give her great consideration.

But she has since day 1 wanted to Lynch ent for misspelling
And she participated with her fellow goons, to create the landslide that lynche the Town Cop, because she wanted to lynch a quite person if there was momentum.

This action destroyed the momentum and lead I had in trying to Lynch Utisz as well as murder ferrus.

She is not worth any consideration.

Below is the results of my inquisition of her from 2 days ago. I'm am in error as to the order of how the pile started.

It was
---------
Buddha
P-O
lethe

and not
----------
Buddha
lethe
P-O

http://forums.intpcomplex.com/showthread.php?2582-Mafia-4-Day-3&p=117153&viewfull=1#post117153

She is not worth your consideration as she would kill you for any reason she could get away with.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 11:28 AM
^^^Should have read: As well as prevent the Murder of ferrus.

lethe
07-01-2015, 11:31 AM
I don't understand why you keep insisting I picked ent for spelling.

I also don't understand why you can't see the benefit of targeting other mafia first.

Imagine if you are wrong about me. A mafia you kill could turn up godfather. Then, you will know for sure that you have two confirmed townie.

What is the gain of taking the risk of being wrong on a townie early? What is the danger in waiting to kill me?

Buddha
07-01-2015, 11:38 AM
Your 'reasoning' makes no sense. Why would you rather die today than tomorrow? To sacrifice yourself in order to save lethe?

Sticking with my vote.

It makes perfect sense to me.

If you are townie you'll at least come to your senses after having lynched me.
If you are mafia you'll have to ramp up the accusations on somebody else.

Why does it make more sense to you to vote for lethe than for me? You are certain I am mafia. Prove it.
You're willing to be lynched on day 3, after lethe dies, and after I die. I suspect the mafia will have won by the time it comes to that. 4 townies will have died. Helium is useless.

I'd rather move this chain of votes one day forward and give the townies a chance.

Vote for me.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 11:45 AM
The reason they want you to take Buddha first is that he was low on my list to investigate last night and she is the God Father I investigated but GF report as Vanilla Townies.

Which means if you kill Buddha today he will turn out to be a regular Maf.

Then when I'm am dead most assuredly tonight.
She will try to sew speculation and intrigue
Because any remaining player could be the GF.

Given her track record, do you want to take that chance?

Also, they attempted (very nearly did) delude me into lynching Light Leak as the GF.

We kill her today.
Buddha is dead meat that will die when I'm gone.
I hate I'll not be here for it.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 11:52 AM
ent, GnarlFox

It's going to be up to you two.

I'll say it again. I'd rather you kill me today than let OrionzRevenge and Sappho - either through cluelessness or design - set up two kills in a row. One of which I'm certain is townie and the other of which has been proven innocent through cop investigations. It is too soon to start killing off confirmed townies. That is something you do on the last days, when the pool of players is a lot smaller. Not when there are still 8 players left.

It makes no sense to me to want to kill lethe today whilst proclaiming that I am most certainly mafia.
Yet neither of them are willing to cast a vote for me.

I suspect Sappho is mafia and OrionzRevenge is letting his dislike for lethe guide him.

lethe
07-01-2015, 11:55 AM
I can tell you like the idea of being the decider and dictating the game, but you are all over the place and lose reason.

Once again you are wrong about me. Buddha will look innocent by vehemently defending me now.

Killing me now is a risk you don't have to take.

Again I ask all: why not hunt other mafia to find the godfather before resorting to killing confirmed townies.

What is to gain?

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 12:15 PM
The more they try to get you to vote for Buddha first, the more sure you can be that lethe is the God Father. I told lethe on Day 1 if she were Maf then she would be my worst fear.

They have had me chasing ass half the day.


But we've got the God Father in a cage and we will Burn her wicked ass to a crisp at dusk.
Then I don't doubt you'll know what to do with her goon trying so hard to say her.

lethe
07-01-2015, 12:16 PM
Well, I can only repeat myself now, and I have to nap before a busy day. I'll be back to only being able to check in throughout the day again.

I hope you guys take the time to sift through the previous posts.

I'd i get lynched I will turn up vanilla townie. We will be pretty screwed. Might want to work on a plan for that.

Maybe because they are the only ones talking, but I'm wary of both Sappho and Buddha.

If Buddha is mafia, he knows I'm innocent, so hopes I die while he is seen defending me.

I find it strange Sappho believes Buddha is guilty, but would rather target me. It's not like there is a big landslide against me and at this point she can pretty much force my vote of him, especially since I've already says he's suspicious. I am also surprised she doesn't see the benefit of waiting to target investigated townies until AFTER non investigated mafia have been killed, just in case one of them is the godfather.

lethe
07-01-2015, 12:16 PM
The more they try to get you to vote for Buddha first, the more sure you can be that lethe is the God Father. I told lethe on Day 1 if she were Maf then she would be my worst fear.

They have had me chasing ass half the day.


But we've got the God Father in a cage and we will Burn her wicked ass to a crisp at dusk.
Then I don't doubt you'll know what to do with her goon trying so hard to say her.

Watch yourself

Sappho
07-01-2015, 12:18 PM
Killing me now is a risk you don't have to take.

(...)

What is to gain?

The question is: what do we lose? A true townie would argue "Don't kill me, you'll lynch a townie and you'll lose a round because of that". You, however, ask what risk (!) there would be in letting you live.

Sticking with my vote.

lethe
07-01-2015, 12:26 PM
I told you what you have to lose:

It's more than just the fact that I'm a townie. I'm more valuable than other players because I was investigated.

If I'm town and you kill me now you are left with a mute player (helium) who can't help and may still be mafia, and you have no other investigated townies. All advantage of cop will be lost.

If I am town and you hunt the investigated mafia, one could turn up godfather. That saves you from ever having to risk killing a confirmed townie (big risk) AND sets you up at the end of the game with two confirmed innocents!

Hunting and killing the godfather helps you the most if you still have multiple investigated townies. His death solidifies the cops findings.

It seems reckless to me to risk killing that advantage when you have less costly targets.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 12:27 PM
Watch yourself

I'll be watching next eve when it's

GAME OVER
TOWNIES CRUSH MAFIA!!!


:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::b anana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::ban ana::banana::banana:

You Damn nearly cost me my perfect record of never spilling Townie Blood.

lethe
07-01-2015, 12:29 PM
Orion. If i get lynched and I turn up townie, will you post your handbra on my tombstone?

Buddha
07-01-2015, 12:30 PM
Back to Sappho

I'm not defending lethe. I refuse to sit around being useless today and then dying tomorrow.

Sappho is willing to vote for lethe today if everybody agrees to vote for me tomorrow. Then she's perfectly fine with dying, herself, the day after that. My gut tells me that by then the townies will have lost. It's too sketchy and too convenient.

I'd rather move this chain forward one day, and save trying to kill lethe for being the Godfather -- if she is -- on a later day.
It makes more sense to hunt for the Godfather on the last days when the pool of players is smaller.

Resolve me vs Sappho today.

Take care of lethe on a later day when there are less players.

I think that is best for the townies.

If lethe was Godfather I think she'd probably have killed OrionzRevenge yesterday.

I think it's far more likely that either Sappho or Light Leak are mafia.

Some of you are not thinking straight.

Why is it better to get rid of lethe today, and then kill me tomorrow. Why not the other way around?
That is not sensible at all.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 12:38 PM
Orion. If i get lynched and I turn up townie, will you post your handbra on my tombstone?

You into 52 year old gay men, are you?
:p


I can lighten up again now. You were everything i thought you'd be. Hacked into my BatShit Meter and everything.

You did cost me my perfect score with the BS M

I doubt I'll ever play again cause anything from this will be a step down I'm sure.

And I couldn't Guarantee I'd be Townie saving lives.

Hats Off!

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 01:03 PM
lethe (2)
----------------
OrionzRevenge
Sappho


Sappho (1)
-----------------
Buddha


lethe

Do you want to @ mention Dot and surrender the game?

That way you wouldn't have to die before me and the inevitable wont drag out another two real days.


?????????????

lethe
07-01-2015, 01:08 PM
I'm townie. Since you like gloating, I'd like something when you are shown wrong. The opposite of gloating

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 01:16 PM
I'm townie. Since you like gloating, I'd like something when you are shown wrong. The opposite of gloating

If that came to pass I would tell you that I was the biggest fool that ever walked the planet.

But you're reasonable and super bright.

You and Buddha desperately campaigning to take him first
if you were only half as bright as you are...you'd know if someone tried that, that they were desperately trying to prevent the inevitable.

You know the game is over.
I know you want to out live me.

Why don't we do this with class?

@ Dot and surrender?

It's over. everyone reading sees that.
why prolong this for two real days.

lethe
07-01-2015, 01:19 PM
Saying you are a fool isn't enough.
I want it written. On a post-it. Attached to you.
A picture of that would work.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 01:26 PM
If we have to stretch it out, you know I wont allow you to out live me.
Most of the people you are campaigning to to save, you have tried to kill.
ent
GnarlFox
Light Leak

It doesn't appear Sappho is willing to buck that.

Buddha's record is just as bad.


@ Dot and surrender and leave this with class.

lethe
07-01-2015, 01:29 PM
Are you afraid you are wrong?

Taunting looks pretty silly if your aren't confident enough to risk taking it yourself when you are proven wrong.

Light Leak
07-01-2015, 01:32 PM
You guys are being silly.

The mafia has tricked you into voting for the only vocal confirmed townie left. In a plot I pointed out earlier in this thread!

You are all assuming:
- there is a godfather (likely)
- he was investigated (consider the odds)
- of the two potential candidates, it's the one who participates

and, if all that is true, why would the mafia not kill orion?

Imagine if you are wrong and I'm not the godfather. What are you left with?

I think there is likely a godfather. It's the most common special role used for mafs. So yes they likely have one. And I also think it would be likely for him/her to have been investigated. The godfather knows that his investigation results will show up townie so it seems anyone in that role would likely want to draw enough attention to themselves to be investigated. They godfather would want the cop to see that townie result. So yes, I think it's more likely the one that participates.

That points to you. I did find Buddha most suspicious today... until you tried to convince everyone that the godfather role shouldn't even really be on our minds for now here:


So, unless we want to start killing investigated innocents this round, we are simply hunting mafia right now. The godfather role doesn't come into play.

It would be nice, sure, if the one we caught was godfather. But that was true every round.

Godfather will be harder to catch because we can't rely on investigation results. It could be anyone. So I don't seem the harm in thinking about the possibility of who may be godfather now. If you had argued that we wait a Day and see if we can find any mafia in those who haven't been investigated yet, I would have thought that was a good point. But saying that the godfather role shouldn't even come into play for now seems weird and suspicious.



Buddha actually makes a good point.

Consider:

If I am the godfather, what difference does it make which day you kill me?

On the other hand, if we kill off the other mafia, one of them MAY turn out to be the godfather. Then, we never have to risk a confirmed townie.

It only makes sense to attack confirmed townie AFTER we have killed the other mafia and none of them were godfather.

Why take the risk if you don't have to?

How do you know there are still other mafia? It's possible that there is only one remaining maf and it's godfather.


For now I'm voting lethe

lethe
07-01-2015, 01:35 PM
If we have to stretch it out, you know I wont allow you to out live me.
Most of the people you are campaigning to to save, you have tried to kill.
ent
GnarlFox
Light Leak

It doesn't appear Sappho is willing to buck that.



Lies. Again. Do you even read the threads? Your list of people I "tried to kill" is wrong. You keep doing this.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 01:37 PM
I wont trouble you by asking again. But this game is a sensation. One folks will talk about. Reference to n00bs as Heph did to me.

You were My worst fear in an adversary. Do you know how many turns and twist you and Buddha put me through today?

lethe
07-01-2015, 01:42 PM
I think there is likely a godfather. It's the most common special role used for mafs. So yes they likely have one. And I also think it would be likely for him/her to have been investigated. The godfather knows that his investigation results will show up townie so it seems anyone in that role would likely want to draw enough attention to themselves to be investigated. They godfather would want the cop to see that townie result. So yes, I think it's more likely the one that participates.

That points to you. I did find Buddha most suspicious today... until you tried to convince everyone that the godfather role shouldn't even really be on our minds for now here:



Godfather will be harder to catch because we can't rely on investigation results. It could be anyone. So I don't seem the harm in thinking about the possibility of who may be godfather now. If you had argued that we wait a Day and see if we can find any mafia in those who haven't been investigated yet, I would have thought that was a good point. But saying that the godfather role shouldn't even come into play for now seems weird and suspicious.




How do you know there are still other mafia? It's possible that there is only one remaining maf and it's godfather.


For now I'm voting lethe

You say the godfather would want the town to see that result. Yes. So... Why would the mafia keep him alive AFTER that?

They let Orion do more investigation AFTER I was already revealed townie.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 01:48 PM
lethe (3)
----------------
OrionzRevenge
Sappho
Light Leak

Sappho (1)
-----------------
Buddha

Buddha
07-01-2015, 01:50 PM
lethe it is.

I've been wrong about just about everybody and everything the whole game. That must be why the mafia keeps me around.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 01:51 PM
lethe (4)
----------------
OrionzRevenge
Sappho
Light Leak
Buddha

lethe
07-01-2015, 01:53 PM
I really don't have any more time here.

Look, it doesn't make sense to kill me. And if you are wrong about me being godfather, I am one if the worst people to lose right now.

It truly won't matter who the godfather is after that. All potential chance of benefiting from the cops result will be lost.

Think about it: losing me would be a HUGE blow to the town.
You'd better be pretty darned sure and not have any other safer options before you place that bet.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 02:02 PM
Buddha has already confessed and voted against you.
Do you really think ent and GnarlFox will attempt to turn back the tide for you.
The they stood with me to save ferrus.

Light Leak
07-01-2015, 02:46 PM
You say the godfather would want the town to see that result. Yes. So... Why would the mafia keep him alive AFTER that?

They let Orion do more investigation AFTER I was already revealed townie.

Maybe only the godfather remains. This would mean that all remaining investigations are useless because everyone will show up townie.

Fitz
07-01-2015, 04:56 PM
The main reason I suspect lethe is P-O's shitty attempt at vote manipulation during day one. Macg is clearly going to die, while lethe and I both are sitting on two votes. P-O rushes in at the 13th hour to change his vote to me putting me at 3 votes and lethe at 2 saying it's better to have a clear second. In doing this and attempting to make me the clear second he draws attention away from lethe.

Now, why on earth would he want to draw attention away from lethe? If both lethe and I are townies his actions make no sense as either of us dying the next day furthers his chance of winning. But if he wants me to die and not lethe, well, that certainly makes things interesting.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 05:15 PM
Buddha has already confessed and voted against you.

What do I have to "confess" about?

I have people I suspect more than lethe at this point. I have people I suspect less.
I could be wrong about everything. I'll talk about this tomorrow if I'm alive.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 05:44 PM
ent

lethe (4)
----------------
OrionzRevenge
Sappho
Light Leak
Buddha

Fitz
07-01-2015, 05:57 PM
lethe ​time's up darlin'.

lethe
07-01-2015, 06:53 PM
Ent had it out for me since I first voted him as a target day one. Look how long he's retaliated even without reason.

Orion is all over the place.

Now you guys want to risk the costliest loss on that? Odd.

Try to imagine what you will do when you find out you are wrong.
Buddha ... You know if i get lynched I'll turn up innocent and you will look good for protecting me and will have stronger standing against Orions speculation. You said you found other members more suspect than me. Who?
I'd like you on record saying this, and on record why you are giving up on protecting me.

Remember I'm over a barrel, pretty much having to vote for any other member who gains momentum. If you had a choice, who would that member be?

(Yes I see the irony, but I think we can all agree that getting this info from you is valuable)

Fitz
07-01-2015, 07:05 PM
lethe You mean besides that reason I literally just provided where confirmed mafia was protecting you?

lethe
07-01-2015, 07:16 PM
Yes. I do. Like day one before it happened. And over the next day I repeatedly asked you for reasons to target me and you had none (yet). I pointed this out in my super long explanation after Utisz died.

I think you are trying to make it fit from hindsight, and its blinding you to the more suspicious behavior of others. And jets be honest, the behavior pointed out by others to justify suspicions of targets like Buddha are more compelling than what you just gave.

That aside, I ask you to prepare for the possibility that I get lynched and turn up townie.

How will that change your suspicions on other players? What information can we get now while mafia still needs me dead? What can we get players on record saying?

Buddha
07-01-2015, 07:17 PM
lethe: I suspect Sappho more, obviously. I thought that much would have been obvious.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 07:21 PM
How will that change your suspicions on other players? What information can we get now while mafia still needs me dead? What can we get players on record saying?

Even if you are a townie Buddha is still mafia. No doubts about it. Of course he's now trying to put a price on my head because I was the one who brought up the initial suspicion that led to his eventual indictment.

If I live to see tomorrow, you can be sure that he is who I am going to vote for.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 07:23 PM
lethe: I was not protecting you. I just think it's foolish to vote for you today.

I've been reacting against Sappho's whole "I'm willing to vote for lethe, even though I suspect Buddha more - provided you all kill him tomorrow".

Think of it from my point of view. I know I am townie. I know that the game is lost if you are townie and her plan goes through. I therefor find it very risky to support her.

I'm not doing this to "look good". I'm doing this because I don't want to lose the game.
I have other ideas but those are precipated on the names and roles of tomorrow's dead.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 07:24 PM
Even if you are a townie – Buddha is still mafia. No doubts about it. Of course he's now trying to put a price on my head because I was the one who brought up the initial suspicion that led to his eventual indictment.

If I live to see tomorrow, you can be sure that he is who I am going to vote for.

So why have you avoided voting for me today?

The only logical explaination is: You know I'm townie. You know you'll look suspicious if that fact gets made public tomorrow.
You're buying time because two dead townies in a row spell a mafia win with helium being AFK.

lethe
07-01-2015, 07:25 PM
Ok Buddha. Anyone else?

When did you decide to break off from your following Orions vote choices? Why?

Buddha
07-01-2015, 07:28 PM
Ok Buddha. Anyone else?

When did you decide to break off from your following Orions vote choices? Why?

I said so. I was doing everything I could to sabotage Sappho's plan. It will lose us the game.

lethe
07-01-2015, 07:28 PM
I have to say, it does confuse me that sappho is convinced you are mafia yet doesn't see the benefit of killing you first.

Cost of being wrong about me is higher than the cost of being wrong about Buddha. Plus, there is the chance Buddha's death proves two innocent townies. No such gain with mine.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 07:31 PM
I have to say, it does confuse me that sappho is convinced you are mafia yet doesn't see the benefit of killing you first.

Cost of being wrong about me is higher than the cost of being wrong about Buddha. Plus, there is the chance Buddha's death proves two innocent townies. No such gain with mine.

It makes fuck all sense.

She refused to kill me when there were only two votes against you - somebody she claims she suspects less.
You had not voted yet. You'd be voting for me right away. GnarlFox and ent would have joined in.

Unfortunately it looks like it's going to work.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 07:39 PM
So why have you avoided voting for me today?
I haven't. In fact, I voted for you twice and explicitly before lethe was brought up.

The reasons I changed my vote were that I trust OrionzRevenge, that lethe's tone smells as fishy as a 18th century Parisian farmers' market, and that I'd rather make my vote count and roast my second suspicion, instead of throwing it away on my first.

Your reactions were downright bizarre, by the by you even voted for yourself in order to mess with us! Sadly for you, this crude attempt at a ruse did not impress anyone, so there we are. You're more suspicious than ever for the gazillion reasons I have listed before. My vote's on your head tomorrow.


The only logical explaination is: You know I'm townie.
All I know is that you've been behaving bloody sneakily and dastardly all along. I am close enough to being 100% sure you're mafia.


You know you'll look suspicious if that fact gets made public tomorrow.
If you're a townie, and I should err so gravely, then I'd deserve to be lynched indeed, not for being a mafioso, but for being a weak townie.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 07:52 PM
If you're a townie, and I should err so gravely, then I'd deserve to be lynched indeed, not for being a mafioso, but for being a weak townie.

Sadly, I believe you and OrionzRevenge are indeed townie. I'm more certain of you than I am of him at this point, actually.

Sappho
07-01-2015, 08:27 PM
Sadly, I believe you and OrionzRevenge are indeed townie. I'm more certain of you than I am of him at this point, actually.

Is this an attempt to sway my opinion of you by blandishments now, since the threats haven't worked?

If you're town, I'm going to compose piano variations on the Belgian national anthem.

Also, going to bed now. Seeing as Day 5 will end at half past four in the morning in my time zone, consider my vote locked.

Buddha
07-01-2015, 08:49 PM
Is this an attempt to sway my opinion of you by blandishments now, since the threats haven't worked?

If you're town, I'm going to compose piano variations on the Belgian national anthem.

Also, going to bed now. Seeing as Day 5 will end at half past four in the morning in my time zone, consider my vote locked.

I don't have a strategy. I just feel like my hand is being forced and I haven't had any idea how to respond.
Believe me... if I had thought up a strategy it might not have worked but it at least I'd have been consistent.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:06 PM
lethe (4)
----------------
OrionzRevenge
Sappho
Light Leak
Buddha
ent

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:07 PM
Oops, 5 that is


lethe (5)
----------------
OrionzRevenge
Sappho
Light Leak
Buddha

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 09:08 PM
Oops, 5 that is


lethe (5)
----------------
OrionzRevenge
Sappho
Light Leak
Buddha
ent


D'oh

just waking from a nap

GnarlFox
07-01-2015, 10:30 PM
The question is: what do we lose? A true townie would argue "Don't kill me, you'll lynch a townie and you'll lose a round because of that". You, however, ask what risk (!) there would be in letting you live.

Sticking with my vote.

Good point.


I told you what you have to lose:

It's more than just the fact that I'm a townie. I'm more valuable than other players because I was investigated.

If I'm town and you kill me now you are left with a mute player (helium) who can't help and may still be mafia, and you have no other investigated townies. All advantage of cop will be lost.

If I am town and you hunt the investigated mafia, one could turn up godfather. That saves you from ever having to risk killing a confirmed townie (big risk) AND sets you up at the end of the game with two confirmed innocents!

Hunting and killing the godfather helps you the most if you still have multiple investigated townies. His death solidifies the cops findings.

It seems reckless to me to risk killing that advantage when you have less costly targets.

There is almost certainly a Godfather, and if there is then I don't see how you being investigated helps you. You're trying to champion us to look for another Mafia member, but there is the possibility that there isn't another. If that turned out to be the case, then looking for one makes no sense. We would only be looking for a Godfather at that point. In which case, I don't see a reason to not vote for you considering the things you are ignoring as well as reposition. The only way to hunt the Godfather is by killing those we think are Mafia and you aren't making a good case for yourself. What Sappho has picked up above and what Light Leak says below, I'm in agreeance with.


I think there is likely a godfather. It's the most common special role used for mafs. So yes they likely have one. And I also think it would be likely for him/her to have been investigated. The godfather knows that his investigation results will show up townie so it seems anyone in that role would likely want to draw enough attention to themselves to be investigated. They godfather would want the cop to see that townie result. So yes, I think it's more likely the one that participates.

That points to you. I did find Buddha most suspicious today... until you tried to convince everyone that the godfather role shouldn't even really be on our minds for now here:

Godfather will be harder to catch because we can't rely on investigation results. It could be anyone. So I don't seem the harm in thinking about the possibility of who may be godfather now. If you had argued that we wait a Day and see if we can find any mafia in those who haven't been investigated yet, I would have thought that was a good point. But saying that the godfather role shouldn't even come into play for now seems weird and suspicious. Buddha of course did seem the weirdest but lethe is trying anything to stay alive at the behest of us all.

How do you know there are still other mafia? It's possible that there is only one remaining maf and it's godfather.

For now I'm voting lethe

The Mafia killing off Hephaestus yesterday was a bold move but they should be shitting bricks. I'm voting lethe.

OrionzRevenge
07-01-2015, 10:48 PM
lethe (6)
----------------
OrionzRevenge
Sappho
Light Leak
Buddha
ent
GnarlFox

Buddha
07-02-2015, 12:17 AM
We could settle all this distrust with a good orgy...

lethe
07-02-2015, 02:28 AM
You guys were foolish.

Being trustworthy and having good reasoning are two different things.

You especially Orion got carried away. I will accept the apology picture in private if you prefer to save your pride.

Blorg
07-02-2015, 02:29 AM
Night has started. lethe was a vanilla townie.

OrionzRevenge
07-02-2015, 02:31 AM
You Know I had to be here. One of those "Somber Duties" you know.
But you aint one for the Down of Death. Look here, I bought some supplies.
We got some Hot Dogs...
Cold Beer...
And some Fireworks, better set them way over here for now.

Wanna Beer?
I guess it aint TOO big a risk to untie one hand.

First Star

You ever do that cliche shit and look up into the night sky wondering if there are people looking down?

Making all sorts of speculations from there Box seats.
What you did right, what you did wrong.
Calculating the Sum of Fluidic Intuition using a Rational Sieve. :p

Soon enough you're gonna get all black and smokey and head up to find out.
I wont be long myself.

I owe you another Daily Dose of Gratitude.

Vividly Immersive

If I did this shit all the time I'd be completely Crazy. Sitting on a corner somewhere playing with a decaying Squirrel or some such.

Anyways, you enjoy your beer. I'm going to head up the hill here finish my paperwork in the sunset.

Thanks lethe



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++

One never knows if it is your last day in Townie Land. But I truly don't expect a return.

I've strutted around this afternoon like Cock of the Walk to see what might drop.
not much I can figure.

Not knowing Jack-Shit about Maf Undetect Roles who knows if I'll lose this wager about the Maf Title she die with.***

Assuming there is no more surprises to balance having two cops, without helium around we'll win the last round 2 -1.

>>The words she spoke to ferrus on the Gallows.
>>Speech going from being thick as Pea Soup to Canine crisp.
>>Her being as obstructive as lethe about searching for the GF
>>Down to wanting the same deal "I'll change my vote to lethe if I get the assurance of others voting for Buddha in the next round." (http://forums.intpcomplex.com/showthread.php?2601-Mafia-4-Day-5&p=117921&viewfull=1#post117921)

Do some Research Townies about Maf Roles.
Them knowing I have forewarned you about her, and if the end result is apparently 2-1, I played out that little let's walk out of here with class alive to see if I could get something to go on.

Like last eve, I can't help but think it Ironic how P-O apparently was using my n00b-ish-ass ideas about jumping off MacG, so Townies could better find the Maf Cluster over time, and then 5 Maf are on the Cops back on Day 2.

GO TOWNIES
Kill'em All!

OrionzRevenge
07-02-2015, 03:14 AM
You guys were foolish.

Being trustworthy and having good reasoning are two different things.

You especially Orion got carried away. I will accept the apology picture in private if you prefer to save your pride.

Oh, I've been fooled, but I'm not the biggest fool to ever walk the planet.
and I never agreed to send a pic.:p

Assuming my concerns about 2 cops being balanced by something else, I achieved what I set out to do to day. Identify the GF and keep my perfect record in tack of never taking Townie Lives.

When I Townie goes in cahoots with the Mob, She's Mob.

Good show Most Dangerous One.
This Story has more twist than DNA.

OrionzRevenge
07-02-2015, 03:15 AM
"Assuming my concerns about 2 cops being balanced by something else aren't true"

It should have read.

GnarlFox
07-02-2015, 03:54 AM
Fuck. Well, you've only got yourself to blame lethe. I was wondering how you'd react to suspicion and you blew it out of the park. I'm going to assume this was character acting and trust Dot ;)

GnarlFox
07-02-2015, 04:07 AM
We've got to be right one of the next two turns, or both, depending on the amount of Mafia left. As it comes closer to the end, we should hopefully be able to tell who is Mafia by their night votes. We also need to correlate these with the day votes of course.

Fitz
07-02-2015, 04:28 AM
Night has started. lethe was a vanilla townie.

http://i.imgur.com/lzInyeR.gif

Sappho
07-02-2015, 07:13 AM
What the hell!

OrionzRevenge
07-02-2015, 07:51 AM
What the hell!

Yeah, looks like the birds in the sky are flying my way.

You wouldn't be a spoiler too would you Sappho?

Sappho
07-02-2015, 07:55 AM
Yeah, looks like the birds in the sky are flying my way.

You wouldn't be a spoiler too would you Sappho?

No! I am and have been vanilla townie all along. And I am ashamed for trusting your opinion on lethe after those personal squabbles. I should have stuck with Buddha.

:(

OrionzRevenge
07-02-2015, 08:11 AM
No! I am and have been vanilla townie all along. And I am ashamed for trusting your opinion on lethe after those personal squabbles. I should have stuck with Buddha.

:(

Between the possible choices, I really had no choice. Else ent's head would've been on the block next eve.