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Garbage_Doll
01-22-2017, 05:56 AM
Hi! I have been researching typology for well over a decade as something of of a lesire pursuit (I am well aware it is more philosophy than scientific). FYI, I take types to be more about ego, or a general mentality one is always operating through, not literal thought processes, although I see the connection between it all.

As a teen I tested clearly as INTP, and I admit it sounded like me, except NOT. It didn't suit me because it sounded like this cold sci-fi nerd, which I am not. I have always been more of an arty, creative person in terms of personal interests; although I did very well in all subjets in school, except PE. As an adult, I am drawn to psychospiritual matters. But the biggest objection I had was to how miserable it may INTPs sound. It hit on all the criticisms I had received growing up.

I didn't even consider INFP because it was made to sound like a silly, saccharine person who uses emotion to make decisions. As a teen, the idea of being a Feeling type was out of the question. I identified as being a rational, reasoning person. Yet, I liked barbie dolls and poetry, not whatever tomboy stuff INTPs were described as being into.

So I scrapped the whole typology thing...

Flash forward many years, and after reading Psychological Types and Van Der Hoop's Conscious Orientation, the Introverted Feeling type seemed to suit me best, although the Introveted Thinking type was also quite relatable. I've read a plethora of other books and over the past decade have identified as INFP. I have never discussed it with people I know IRL, until now.

Recently among friends there was discussion of type, and everyone saw me as clearly being an INTP, which is usually how I test (but very close on T/F). When I tried to explain why I thought I was a feeling type, they said my way of explaining it made me sound like an INTP. Keep in mind their understanding is limited to Keirsey's ideas.

So I feel I have a strong(er) grasp of the theory behind this than they do, but then again, maybe I have twisted it to suit my image of myself. Or maybe I don't see myself clearly and have twisted the image of myself to fit the theory and who I want to be. What if I am just an INTP woman in the grip of inferior Fe and in denial of not being a feeling type because of an inferior Fe inferiority complex of not being the typical, desirable female personality (ie SFJ)?

I read an online article from some self-proclaimed Jungian type expert about INTPs and relationship struggles and it was scary dead on. The issues with Fe were not dumbed down to being emotionally detached or dismissive of emotions. Rather, it touched on insecurities which lead to social inhibitions and a kind of rebelliousness...

Other people online who identify as INTP will relate to me, I frequently get compared to a relative who is an INTP (but male), and I have been told my reasoning is more Ti than Te (if you buy into the function stackings, which suggests INFPs may have limited Te; although I consider myself Te-stupid also). The differences is these INTPs will tell me I have a greater understanding of and dexterity in dealing with my own emotions and those of others (not in a social context; more of a theoretical one or as a counselor type).

To throw a few more wrenches into it....I am highly likely an enneatype 4w5, which in MBTI sounds pretty much like INxP. But when I read Naranjo's type 5 description in Character and Neuroses, it sounded like the complaints people have made about my personality. I don't think I am a 5, but it demonstrates to me how my personality often appears.

The thing is - I do have strong, nuanced emotions, I understand emotions within others (but less so exchanges of emotion), and I am not scared of complex, emotional matters.

What I struggle with is more of Fe stuff. I am even wondering if my focused development on empathy was born out of the shame heaped on my head growing up for being "cold". I am continually baffled by social dynamics and thrown sideways by what feels like emotional manipulation (which I resist). This is the biggest problem in my life since I was born pretty much.

Then I have a friend who I am quite certain is INFP, and she is like....really nice. I'm this cool, rational person in comparison, but I am also quite principled (or possessing of strong values?) and as noted, I consider myself empathetic. I am not truly detached, I am simply not WARM.

This is less a "help me settle on a type" thread than trying to come to terms with being an INTP woman. Or worse - ditching this idiotic obsession of mine and being okay with the X in my type which drives my need for clarity batty.

BIOTCH
01-22-2017, 06:04 AM
Hi! I have been researching typology for well over a decade as something of of a lesire pursuit (I am well aware it is more philosophy than scientific). FYI, I take types to be more about ego, or a general mentality one is always operating through, not literal thought processes, although I see the connection between it all.

As a teen I tested clearly as INTP, and I admit it sounded like me, except NOT. It didn't suit me because it sounded like this cold sci-fi nerd, which I am not. I have always been more of an arty, creative person in terms of personal interests; although I did very well in all subjets in school, except PE. As an adult, I am drawn to psychospiritual matters. But the biggest objection I had was to how miserable it may INTPs sound. It hit on all the criticisms I had received growing up.

I didn't even consider INFP because it was made to sound like a silly, saccharine person who uses emotion to make decisions. As a teen, the idea of being a Feeling type was out of the question. I identified as being a rational, reasoning person. Yet, I liked barbie dolls and poetry, not whatever tomboy stuff INTPs were described as being into.

So I scrapped the whole typology thing...

Flash forward many years, and after reading Psychological Types and Van Der Hoop's Conscious Orientation, the Introverted Feeling type seemed to suit me best, although the Introveted Thinking type was also quite relatable. I've read a plethora of other books and over the past decade have identified as INFP. I have never discussed it with people I know IRL, until now.

Recently among friends there was discussion of type, and everyone saw me as clearly being an INTP, which is usually how I test (but very close on T/F). When I tried to explain why I thought I was a feeling type, they said my way of explaining it made me sound like an INTP. Keep in mind their understanding is limited to Keirsey's ideas.

So I feel I have a strong(er) grasp of the theory behind this than they do, but then again, maybe I have twisted it to suit my image of myself. Or maybe I don't see myself clearly and have twisted the image of myself to fit the theory and who I want to be. What if I am just an INTP woman in the grip of inferior Fe and in denial of not being a feeling type because of an inferior Fe inferiority complex of not being the typical, desirable female personality (ie SFJ)?

I read an online article from some self-proclaimed Jungian type expert about INTPs and relationship struggles and it was scary dead on. The issues with Fe were not dumbed down to being emotionally detached or dismissive of emotions. Rather, it touched on insecurities which lead to social inhibitions and a kind of rebelliousness...

Other people online who identify as INTP will relate to me, I frequently get compared to a relative who is an INTP (but male), and I have been told my reasoning is more Ti than Te (if you buy into the function stackings, which suggests INFPs may have limited Te; although I consider myself Te-stupid also). The differences is these INTPs will tell me I have a greater understanding of and dexterity in dealing with my own emotions and those of others (not in a social context; more of a theoretical one or as a counselor type).

To throw a few more wrenches into it....I am highly likely an enneatype 4w5, which in MBTI sounds pretty much like INxP. But when I read Naranjo's type 5 description in Character and Neuroses, it sounded like the complaints people have made about my personality. I don't think I am a 5, but it demonstrates to me how my personality often appears.

The thing is - I do have strong, nuanced emotions, I understand emotions within others (but less so exchanges of emotion), and I am not scared of complex, emotional matters.

What I struggle with is more of Fe stuff. I am even wondering if my focused development on empathy was born out of the shame heaped on my head growing up for being "cold". I am continually baffled by social dynamics and thrown sideways by what feels like emotional manipulation (which I resist). This is the biggest problem in my life since I was born pretty much.

Then I have a friend who I am quite certain is INFP, and she is like....really nice. I'm this cool, rational person in comparison, but I am also quite principled (or possessing of strong values?) and as noted, I consider myself empathetic. I am not truly detached, I am simply not WARM.

This is less a "help me settle on a type" thread than trying to come to terms with being an INTP woman. Or worse - ditching this idiotic obsession of mine and being okay with the X in my type which drives my need for clarity batty.

The majority of females and males who test as INTP actually tend to be INFJs and INFP's. Please educate urselves on cognitive functions of INFJ's and INFP's :D

Works
01-22-2017, 06:06 AM
Hi, welcome. Typing is imperfect.

Garbage_Doll
01-22-2017, 06:08 AM
The majority of females and males who test as INTP actually tend to be INFJs and INFP's. Please educate urselves on cognitive functions of INFJ's and INFP's :D

Have done so for the past 10+ years.

BIOTCH
01-22-2017, 06:09 AM
Hi, welcome. Typing is imperfect.

Hello little Robin, have you seen the key?

BIOTCH
01-22-2017, 06:10 AM
Have done so for the past 10+ years.
ooo rly?? i'd like to hear about ur cognitive functions :lol:

Garbage_Doll
01-22-2017, 06:16 AM
ooo rly?? i'd like to hear about ur cognitive functions :lol:

There are no literal cognitive functions that align with the 8 Jungian types.
Jung didn't describe literal thought processes going on in the brain. He decribed ego types, which are more like identity or conscious orientation to reality.

I already touched on that in the OP.

It's pretty clear I know more than you do about types, LOL!

BIOTCH
01-22-2017, 06:22 AM
Try educating urself brah instead of trying to be superior to others for the sake of being superior. Let's gain knowledge and share knowledge. No hate

Garbage_Doll
01-22-2017, 06:32 AM
Try educating urself brah instead of trying to be superior to others for the sake of being superior. Let's gain knowledge and share knowledge. No hate

Someone is being more of a boob than a brah....and it's not me.

BIOTCH
01-22-2017, 06:33 AM
Someone is being more of a boob than a brah....and it's not me.

Nup it's called pyrate rum :rofl:

Robcore
01-22-2017, 07:36 AM
I think that if your T stat is pretty high, your F stat can also be pretty high, too...to the point where actually being one or the other is not significant as it pertains to your interactions with the world (you can T and F sufficiently to navigate nearly all circumstances, to the point where there isn't a marked weakness to be concerned about).

When both stats are sufficiently and similarly strong, the difference is going to pertain pretty much only to your subjective sense of things. You've got a closet with 3 blue towels and 3 red ones...to the world, you're capable of being a red towel supplier, or a blue towel supplier...but subjectively, you put one stack of them on the left side of the closet where you can grab them more easily...y'know?
I think that if you are really more of a T, you may occasionally experience emotions like you're watching yourself, and saying "Oh, that's what I look like from this angle". Your emotions may have all the richness and depth that we expect from a hardcore feeler, but you wear them like a shirt, rather than believing that you are the shirt. You can definitely have times when you're totally in the emotion, too, without that self-consciousness...but that's bound to be an exception to your norm.

On the flip side, you could be a feeler who is incredibly rational...and you are more likely to have a sense of watching a thought, and saying "Oh, that's what that looks like from this angle"...essentially casting a value-judgment on your thoughts, rather than a thought-analysis of your value/feeling, as in the first example.

gator
01-22-2017, 09:16 AM
I hear you on the type description not quite fitting. Typology is an imperfect thing and INTP women are kind of their own category that don't fit the standard description very well. I think a lot of that is socialization that suppresses their rougher, more autistic edges and forces them to act in ways that are feelier. There is just less tolerance of typical INTP traits in women than there is in men. So have to learn to act normal and The good news is that this means that INTP women often have a lot of the good INTP traits and very few of the bad.

Having strong emotions doesn't make you a feeler though. We all use all of our inferior functions from time to time. As Robcore said, it is more a matter of which ones you are most likely to reach for most often. And I've found that it depends a lot on whatever is happening in your life at any given time. Sometimes circumstances will cause you to lean on and express certain parts of you more often than others.

But ultimately this stuff is only really useful to the point that it aids in understanding yourself and relationships with others. If there are bits that don't make sense or don't fit then it's probably because the theory is too simple to really accurately convey the complexity of any individual's lived experience.

jyng1
01-22-2017, 09:49 AM
I hear you on the type description not quite fitting. Typology is an imperfect thing and INTP women are kind of their own category that don't fit the standard description very well.

Interesting considering the Indicator was originally developed from Jung's work by a mother and daughter team primarily for women...

Madrigal
01-22-2017, 04:58 PM
The thing is - I do have strong, nuanced emotions, I understand emotions within others (but less so exchanges of emotion), and I am not scared of complex, emotional matters.

What I struggle with is more of Fe stuff. I am even wondering if my focused development on empathy was born out of the shame heaped on my head growing up for being "cold". I am continually baffled by social dynamics and thrown sideways by what feels like emotional manipulation (which I resist). This is the biggest problem in my life since I was born pretty much.


I'm curious about this. You recognize that your emotions are "strong and nuanced" (I'm not sure anyone would claim otherwise though) and that you can recognize emotions in others, but you don't understand the way those emotions interact in a complex social exchange? I just find it odd that you can recognize one and not the other. Can you give an example of the type of exchange that confuses you?

gator
01-22-2017, 07:19 PM
Interesting considering the Indicator was originally developed from Jung's work by a mother and daughter team primarily for women...

Yeah, but for certain types it feels like a particular gender is implied by the description. The INTP one feels a lot more male than female, which kind of makes sense because most INTPs are men.

jyng1
01-22-2017, 07:27 PM
Yeah, but for certain types it feels like a particular gender is implied by the description. The INTP one feels a lot more male than female, which kind of makes sense because most INTPs are men.


Yeah, I noticed that with all the ESTJ women at work when I gave them the indicator... i caught myself mentioning that F was more associated with female traits. The ESTJ girl I have a bit of a thing for thinks I'm a bit of a girl so not sure what that means. Maybe I work in a hyper masculine workplace.

gator
01-23-2017, 01:08 AM
Yeah, I noticed that with all the ESTJ women at work when I gave them the indicator... i caught myself mentioning that F was more associated with female traits. The ESTJ girl I have a bit of a thing for thinks I'm a bit of a girl so not sure what that means. Maybe I work in a hyper masculine workplace.

There is also the fact that the standard MBTI descriptions of INTPs and career suggestions lean very heavily toward STEM and academic things like computer programming, math, engineering, academia. These are definitely good options for INTPs But there is a significant number of us that are more drawn toward creative jobs and hobbies. Some of us have followed that inclination into actual career paths. I'm thinking myself, stuck, jigglypuff, Spartan26 etc. (I'll add Sappho to the list even though she's come around to calling herself intj). There are others who are just pulled very significantly toward some form of expressive arts, like Dirac and Makers!*. It's not something that we all share across the board, but I feel like there are enough of us that it necessitates a partial rewrite of the type description.

jyng1
01-23-2017, 01:20 AM
But there is a significant number of us that are more drawn toward creative jobs and hobbies. Some of us have followed that inclination into actual career paths. I'm thinking myself, stuck, jigglypuff, Spartan26 etc. (I'll add Sappho to the list even though she's come around to calling herself intj).

You might want to read Character and Personality Type from Dario Nardi (http://www.darionardi.com/). In that he provides 4 character biographies for each of the different types. His biographies for INTPs include: a computer engineer, a psychologist, a screenwriter and a music professor...

I'm not sure INTPs would make good engineers... engineers have to work too hard.

gator
01-23-2017, 01:40 AM
You might want to read Character and Personality Type from Dario Nardi (http://www.darionardi.com/). In that he provides 4 character biographies for each of the different types. His biographies for INTPs include: a computer engineer, a psychologist, a screenwriter and a music professor...

I'm not sure INTPs would make good engineers... engineers have to work too hard.

Yeah, I think they would make better architects. Architects dream up the ideas. Engineers have to get bogged down with the logistics of actually trying to build the things.

Madrigal
01-23-2017, 09:51 AM
Yeah, I think they would make better architects. Architects dream up the ideas. Engineers have to get bogged down with the logistics of actually trying to build the things.

Hmm, architects and engineers both dream up the ideas, I just think the ones that come from architects look much better. :D

/quibble

jyng1
01-23-2017, 09:54 AM
Hmm, architects and engineers both dream up the ideas, I just think the ones that come from architects look much better. :D

/quibble

Oh really.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/FalkirkWheelSide_2004_SeanMcClean.jpg/1024px-FalkirkWheelSide_2004_SeanMcClean.jpg

JohnClay
01-23-2017, 10:02 AM
From a 200+ page PDF about INTPs:
http://www.oddlydevelopedtypes.com/files/The%20Secret%20Lives%20of%20INTPs.pdf

Traits Seen as Characteristic of Female INTPs
(From Most Characteristic to Least Characteristic)
• Is basically distrustful of people in general; questions their motivations (.35)
• Distrustful (.30)
• Sulky (.29)
• Evasive (.28)
• Indifferent (.28)
• Resentful (.28)
• Keeps people at a distance; avoids close interpersonal relationships (.27)
• Defensive (.26)
• Wary (.26)
• Unfriendly (.25)
• Is subtly negativistic; ends to undermine and obstruct or sabotage (.25)
• Tends to be self-defensive (.25)
• Tense (.24)
• Aloof (.23)
• Extrapunitive; tends to transfer or project blame (.20)

Traits Not Seen as Characteristic of Female INTPs
(From Most Uncharacteristic to Least Uncharacteristic)
• Tolerant (-.27)
• Appreciative (-.26)
• Helpful (-.26)
• Cooperative (-.25)
• Emphasizes being with others; gregarious (-.25)
• Honest (-.24)
• Warm (-.24)
• Pleasant (-.23)
• Sincere (-.23)
• Sympathetic (-.23)
• Understanding (-.23)
• Has social poise and presence; appears socially at ease (-.23)
• Has a clear-cut, internally consistent personality (-.22)
• Appears straightforward, forthright, candid in dealing with others (-.22)
• Is turned to for advice and reassurance (-.20)

Tigerlily
01-24-2017, 06:20 AM
Welcome @Garbage_Doll (http://forums.intpcomplex.com/member.php?u=909). Most INTP's are lovely people and cuddly huggers.

Tigerlily
01-24-2017, 06:23 AM
The majority of females and males who test as INTP actually tend to be INFJs and INFP's. Please educate urselves on cognitive functions of INFJ's and INFP's :DYou're totally an ESFP, so your opinion is invalid.

Garbage_Doll
02-20-2017, 07:49 PM
I appreciate the feedback I got busy and forgot this thread existed... haha.


I'm curious about this. You recognize that your emotions are "strong and nuanced" (I'm not sure anyone would claim otherwise though) and that you can recognize emotions in others, but you don't understand the way those emotions interact in a complex social exchange? I just find it odd that you can recognize one and not the other. Can you give an example of the type of exchange that confuses you?

The first time I read this, it stumped me, honestly. It sounds like a contradiction, and it is, except to say it may be the difference between understanding the theoretical workings of things vs being able to make something work in reality.

I feel like I understand emotions very well, especially emotional motivations. In theory, I understand how and why people feel as they do, especially when it is not typical. I understand RAW emotion, not what is expected. I get feedback that I have insight into how people work and that I give good advice. I can be very empathetic and am frequently sought as a confidante to others. BUT, sometimes I think it's because I DON'T take on the emotions of others. I stay calm and resist being influenced by their emotions. I understand it all intellectually. I actually have a intense drive to order and make sense of all emotion, so that even the strangest emotions will be analyzed by me and fit into an idea of how people work in my head.

So I think I have pretty high intrapersonal intelligence, which is why I identified with INFP for so long. But my interpersonal intelligence is crap. I don't seem to grasp the play of emotions between people.

In reality and outside of one-on-one confidante sessions, I am often emotionally dense with people. In situations where I am expected to have an emotional response (an expectation I often don't realize in the moment), and I don't feel it (because I often don't FEEL an emotion myself in relation to other people, including when I empathize with people), then I stay blank and people think I am angry or rude (this EXACT same response makes them think I am calm and soothing at other times). When people get excited and I don't express the same, then I think they find me a downer. I find the expectations of others to be emotionally demanding and many social niceties look like emotional manipulation to me (but sometimes I think this is because I don't fully understand it and feel at the mercy of people who do).

Anyway, the major distinction here I can make is I fail to mirror people, and even when I know I should, I really just don't care to. I resent the expectation to express emotion when I don't feel it, not just because it's "fake", but mainly because it takes so much energy and I feel like an awkward idiot doing it. It just occurred to me that not mirroring people (or realizing they mirror me!) is a problem. I didn't even know it was a thing before. I didn't have that realization when I first read this question; this is a recent epiphany. I am in my 30s, and I am like, "Whoa, I don't mirror people or understand they mirror me, and that's why they hate me or I think they hate me."

I read about inferior Fe in Naomi Quenk's "Was that really me?" and it hit home. The part about how INTPs, when stable, don't care if they are liked so much as respected; but when unstable, they get paranoid and insecure about people's reactions to them - yep, that's me. If I say hi to someone and they were previously smiling to someone else and then suddenly they stare back at me blankly, I may sometimes feel intensely rejected; but it just dawned on me that they are often mirroring my blank face (and yes, I see the hypocrisy in my demeanor and expectations for others). Fe types seem to think you always want to be emotionally in sync. Because FPs don't seem to expect this, I have always clicked better with FP women for friends and took this as another sign I am INFP also.

Other stuff, I didn't realize for a long time that if you walk past people and don't acknowledge their existence, then they come to hate you. Even knowing this, I still don't care enough to do it most of the time.


From a 200+ page PDF about INTPs:
http://www.oddlydevelopedtypes.com/files/The%20Secret%20Lives%20of%20INTPs.pdf

Thanks for this.... I am going to address it point by point. The highly negative view of female INTPs is kind of what gets to me though.

Traits Seen as Characteristic of Female INTPs
(From Most Characteristic to Least Characteristic)
• Is basically distrustful of people in general; questions their motivations (.35) - Yes and no. I relate to a childlike naivetι associated with INFPs when dealing with people, not reading much into anything. BUT, I also have bouts of paranoia where I think people are emotionally manipulative and faking it all for their own gain. If I sense emotional motivation behind reasoning, especially when used against me, then I zoom in on it. I am hyper-sensitive to emotional motivations hiding behind a rational justification.
• Distrustful (.30) - see above
• Sulky (.29) - yes
• Evasive (.28) - yes
• Indifferent (.28) - yes, but I call it a "benevolent indifference"
• Resentful (.28) - yes, very much
• Keeps people at a distance; avoids close interpersonal relationships (.27) - yes, but have improved on this
• Defensive (.26) - yes
• Wary (.26) - not sure how this word is being used....I suppose lack of apparent enthusiasm may lead to this impression
• Unfriendly (.25) - I am told this...but I don't feel that way
• Is subtly negativistic; ends to undermine and obstruct or sabotage (.25) - I am probably seen this way because I don't feel the same need for consensus that others seem to feel
• Tends to be self-defensive (.25) - yes
• Tense (.24) - yes
• Aloof (.23) - yes
• Extrapunitive; tends to transfer or project blame (.20) - not any more than anyone else :lol:

Traits Not Seen as Characteristic of Female INTPs
(From Most Uncharacteristic to Least Uncharacteristic)
• Tolerant (-.27) - I am mostly an easygoing person and feel like I have a long rope. I don't care too much about what others do. But I am also told I make people feel like they are on eggshells, and a friend recently told me I have a habit of correcting people a lot.
• Appreciative (-.26) - I think I am...
• Helpful (-.26) - I admit I don't get warm, gooey feelings from helping people. If I do so, then it is out of principle. I have been told I am very helpful as a confidante and I don't run from that. I am unlikely to help in practical ways, unless it is teaching someone a concept. I generally don't see why people can't do stuff for themselves. Lack of independence in others irritates me, and I also don't like a lot of help from others.
• Cooperative (-.25) - I am not openly rebellious, but I tend to be independent
• Emphasizes being with others; gregarious (-.25) - no
• Honest (-.24) - I am secretive, but not dishonest
• Warm (-.24) - no
• Pleasant (-.23) - ouch...
• Sincere (-.23) - I think so...but I can see how when I contrive to mirror people it looks, well, contrived
• Sympathetic (-.23) - I have become good at expressing sympathy in private situations
• Understanding (-.23) - yes
• Has social poise and presence; appears socially at ease (-.23) - people think I look like a snob, but I feel timid
• Has a clear-cut, internally consistent personality (-.22) - no
• Appears straightforward, forthright, candid in dealing with others (-.22) - I think yes, but I don't know how I appear
• Is turned to for advice and reassurance (-.20) - yes

Honestly, I still lean towards being a prickly variety of INFP, or I think that the pure Jungian types are just that - pure, theoretical types - and that I am simply an Introverted Rational and not purely Ti or Fi dominant. I also relate much more to common famous examples of INFP (more so INFP males, curioiusly...), and even my physical appearance has more of a dreamy, whimsical NF look to it.

Deckard
02-20-2017, 08:18 PM
Garbage_Doll The discrepancy you're talking about could be a mix of low emotional affect and being overwhelmed by information in a social context. It's easier for me to understand emotional nuances when there's a degree of separation. If I'm personally involved in an emotional exchange IRL, most of my brain is taken up by immediate social processing and I have to detach in order to sift through the web of motivations, judgements, feelings, etc.

It's strange to me that tolerance is highest on the list of uncharacteristic traits. I think regardless of gender, INTPs tend to be tolerant and easygoing, although that can be dependent on what is being tolerated. I tend to be tolerant of most things, up until a personal boundary is crossed, at which point I switch into rigid intolerance. Perhaps we can come across as intolerant because those boundaries for us are often social, which represents the majority of our interactions with others.

Deckard
02-20-2017, 08:49 PM
Also, a superficial trend that I find can be a strong indicator of type is someone's choice of username & avatar. Your username screams ENTP to me, and if you'd picked a darkly sexualised fallen angel in bondage type of avatar, I'd have been 95% confident. Also, ENTPs often have an antisocial, iconoclastic streak that separates them from other extroverts. Not that your writing style really suggests ENTP to me, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

helium
02-20-2017, 09:26 PM
I feel like I understand emotions very well, especially emotional motivations. In theory, I understand how and why people feel as they do, especially when it is not typical. I understand RAW emotion, not what is expected. I get feedback that I have insight into how people work and that I give good advice. I can be very empathetic and am frequently sought as a confidante to others. BUT, sometimes I think it's because I DON'T take on the emotions of others. I stay calm and resist being influenced by their emotions. I understand it all intellectually. I actually have a intense drive to order and make sense of all emotion, so that even the strangest emotions will be analyzed by me and fit into an idea of how people work in my head.

So I think I have pretty high intrapersonal intelligence, which is why I identified with INFP for so long. But my interpersonal intelligence is crap. I don't seem to grasp the play of emotions between people.

My brother tested as INFP and identifies with it. I tested as INTP and identify with it. I also identify with the above description. I tend to be able to analyze intrapersonal dynamics, whereas my brother does not. Yet he gets along with people a lot better than I do, though typically in one-on-one relationships; and I struggle with being seen as cold and distant, even in one-on-one relationships, though people do come to me as a confidante. I can also be highly sensitive, bordering on paranoid, when it comes to interpersonal relationships.

I'm glad I'm not the only one experiencing this.

Garbage_Doll
02-20-2017, 11:08 PM
Garbage_Doll The discrepancy you're talking about could be a mix of low emotional affect and being overwhelmed by information in a social context. It's easier for me to understand emotional nuances when there's a degree of separation. If I'm personally involved in an emotional exchange IRL, most of my brain is taken up by immediate social processing and I have to detach in order to sift through the web of motivations, judgements, feelings, etc.

It's strange to me that tolerance is highest on the list of uncharacteristic traits. I think regardless of gender, INTPs tend to be tolerant and easygoing, although that can be dependent on what is being tolerated. I tend to be tolerant of most things, up until a personal boundary is crossed, at which point I switch into rigid intolerance. Perhaps we can come across as intolerant because those boundaries for us are often social, which represents the majority of our interactions with others.

YES. I am easily, easily overwhelmed, and I often prefer to sit back as a detached observer socially, for this reason. If I am personally involved in a matter and my buttons are pushed (often over a violation of a boundary or principle/value), then I may lash out angrily because of it, hence a rep among close associates for being temperamental. Otherwise, I stay detached, but not without any understanding and I don't feel repulsion at emotions in others (I don't care if others get emotional as long as they aren't lashing out at me or trying to manipulate me or demanding from me).

I also realized recently how much I detach from and analyze my own emotions. I intellectualize it all instead of feeling it in a physical sense, but then it builds up internally in a physical way. I thought I was very in-tune with my emotions, but it's more like thoughts about emotions. When I do have a strong emotion, it's this enneagram 4ish exaggeration that I build up on purpose as a part of fantasy. I have discovered this is actually a defense against genuine emotional response. I always thought the analyzing part was Feeling in the Jungian sense though, since Feeling was deemed rational by him.


Also, a superficial trend that I find can be a strong indicator of type is someone's choice of username & avatar. Your username screams ENTP to me, and if you'd picked a darkly sexualised fallen angel in bondage type of avatar, I'd have been 95% confident. Also, ENTPs often have an antisocial, iconoclastic streak that separates them from other extroverts. Not that your writing style really suggests ENTP to me, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

Interesting... my screen names are usually metaphors I come up with, although sometimes stolen from song titles. I could see iconoclasm related to being 4w5 or 5w4 in enneagram, but I am also aware it is more of an image for me than a reality :D .

I frequently use Siousxie Sioux as an avatar (and she is great example of a more arty NT woman), which may or may not be along the lines you speak of. I'm not into fantasy genre images, but I do like slightly dark things. I should probably get an avatar up now, but then it may be a contrivance after this discussion...ahhhh!


My brother tested as INFP and identifies with it. I tested as INTP and identify with it. I also identify with the above description. I tend to be able to analyze intrapersonal dynamics, whereas my brother does not. Yet he gets along with people a lot better than I do, though typically in one-on-one relationships; and I struggle with being seen as cold and distant, even in one-on-one relationships, though people do come to me as a confidante. I can also be highly sensitive, bordering on paranoid, when it comes to interpersonal relationships.

I'm glad I'm not the only one experiencing this.

Thank you, I appreciate the feedback here. This contrast is exactly what I see with between my INFP best friend and myself.

I have a hard time letting go of being INFP myself though... and a big part of it is having to dig up my previous understanding of typology and admit that maybe I got it wrong... When I reread Jung & Van Der Hoop, I was reminded that both Thinking types are as concerned (if not MORE) with systems of morality and ethics as Feeling types (perhaps more so). I am reminded that Ti is more conceptual than textbook logic...then I see that I've been ascribing things to Fi that is possibly applicable to both Introverted Rational types. If Isabel Myers got it right, then my conception of Feeling may be the one that is off...

Cognitively, I am not convinced I have a Ti preference just yet. Inferior Fe is more obvious to me than Ti-dominant, and as much as Te irritates me, I am not really as bad at logistics as I think I am (I think I confuse P preference with poor Te. I am disorganized, late, messy, etc). I get caught up in trying to subvert the typical way of doing things instead of just doing things.

Deckard
02-20-2017, 11:31 PM
I frequently use Siousxie Sioux as an avatar

I'd definitely associate her with INFP in terms of avatar tropes, for what that's worth (probably not much). I think emotional affect can be influenced by a number of things independent of the personality archetypes. It can be hard to account for confounding factors that overlap with MBTI traits, and people with developed inferior functions might come across as a different type (like an intellectual INFP coming across as INTP).

I think perhaps the best method for differentiating is just to read the archetype descriptions and pick which one fits best. If you identify with both archetypes equally, INxP is as valid as anything. Preferences are on a spectrum so the actual categorisation part is just arbitrary delineation anyway.

TeresaJ
02-21-2017, 05:18 AM
Garbage_Doll I'm pretty sure that survey is a few decades old. I would be very curious to see the results of a more contemporary study. I suspect that things are not as bad as they used to be.

Obfuscate
02-21-2017, 07:03 AM
I appreciate the feedback I got busy and forgot this thread existed... haha.



The first time I read this, it stumped me, honestly. It sounds like a contradiction, and it is, except to say it may be the difference between understanding the theoretical workings of things vs being able to make something work in reality.

I feel like I understand emotions very well, especially emotional motivations. In theory, I understand how and why people feel as they do, especially when it is not typical. I understand RAW emotion, not what is expected. I get feedback that I have insight into how people work and that I give good advice. I can be very empathetic and am frequently sought as a confidante to others. BUT, sometimes I think it's because I DON'T take on the emotions of others. I stay calm and resist being influenced by their emotions. I understand it all intellectually. I actually have a intense drive to order and make sense of all emotion, so that even the strangest emotions will be analyzed by me and fit into an idea of how people work in my head.

So I think I have pretty high intrapersonal intelligence, which is why I identified with INFP for so long. But my interpersonal intelligence is crap. I don't seem to grasp the play of emotions between people.

In reality and outside of one-on-one confidante sessions, I am often emotionally dense with people. In situations where I am expected to have an emotional response (an expectation I often don't realize in the moment), and I don't feel it (because I often don't FEEL an emotion myself in relation to other people, including when I empathize with people), then I stay blank and people think I am angry or rude (this EXACT same response makes them think I am calm and soothing at other times). When people get excited and I don't express the same, then I think they find me a downer. I find the expectations of others to be emotionally demanding and many social niceties look like emotional manipulation to me (but sometimes I think this is because I don't fully understand it and feel at the mercy of people who do).

Anyway, the major distinction here I can make is I fail to mirror people, and even when I know I should, I really just don't care to. I resent the expectation to express emotion when I don't feel it, not just because it's "fake", but mainly because it takes so much energy and I feel like an awkward idiot doing it. It just occurred to me that not mirroring people (or realizing they mirror me!) is a problem. I didn't even know it was a thing before. I didn't have that realization when I first read this question; this is a recent epiphany. I am in my 30s, and I am like, "Whoa, I don't mirror people or understand they mirror me, and that's why they hate me or I think they hate me."

I read about inferior Fe in Naomi Quenk's "Was that really me?" and it hit home. The part about how INTPs, when stable, don't care if they are liked so much as respected; but when unstable, they get paranoid and insecure about people's reactions to them - yep, that's me. If I say hi to someone and they were previously smiling to someone else and then suddenly they stare back at me blankly, I may sometimes feel intensely rejected; but it just dawned on me that they are often mirroring my blank face (and yes, I see the hypocrisy in my demeanor and expectations for others). Fe types seem to think you always want to be emotionally in sync. Because FPs don't seem to expect this, I have always clicked better with FP women for friends and took this as another sign I am INFP also.

Other stuff, I didn't realize for a long time that if you walk past people and don't acknowledge their existence, then they come to hate you. Even knowing this, I still don't care enough to do it most of the time.



Thanks for this.... I am going to address it point by point. The highly negative view of female INTPs is kind of what gets to me though.

Traits Seen as Characteristic of Female INTPs
(From Most Characteristic to Least Characteristic)
• Is basically distrustful of people in general; questions their motivations (.35) - Yes and no. I relate to a childlike naivetι associated with INFPs when dealing with people, not reading much into anything. BUT, I also have bouts of paranoia where I think people are emotionally manipulative and faking it all for their own gain. If I sense emotional motivation behind reasoning, especially when used against me, then I zoom in on it. I am hyper-sensitive to emotional motivations hiding behind a rational justification.
• Distrustful (.30) - see above
• Sulky (.29) - yes
• Evasive (.28) - yes
• Indifferent (.28) - yes, but I call it a "benevolent indifference"
• Resentful (.28) - yes, very much
• Keeps people at a distance; avoids close interpersonal relationships (.27) - yes, but have improved on this
• Defensive (.26) - yes
• Wary (.26) - not sure how this word is being used....I suppose lack of apparent enthusiasm may lead to this impression
• Unfriendly (.25) - I am told this...but I don't feel that way
• Is subtly negativistic; ends to undermine and obstruct or sabotage (.25) - I am probably seen this way because I don't feel the same need for consensus that others seem to feel
• Tends to be self-defensive (.25) - yes
• Tense (.24) - yes
• Aloof (.23) - yes
• Extrapunitive; tends to transfer or project blame (.20) - not any more than anyone else :lol:

Traits Not Seen as Characteristic of Female INTPs
(From Most Uncharacteristic to Least Uncharacteristic)
• Tolerant (-.27) - I am mostly an easygoing person and feel like I have a long rope. I don't care too much about what others do. But I am also told I make people feel like they are on eggshells, and a friend recently told me I have a habit of correcting people a lot.
• Appreciative (-.26) - I think I am...
• Helpful (-.26) - I admit I don't get warm, gooey feelings from helping people. If I do so, then it is out of principle. I have been told I am very helpful as a confidante and I don't run from that. I am unlikely to help in practical ways, unless it is teaching someone a concept. I generally don't see why people can't do stuff for themselves. Lack of independence in others irritates me, and I also don't like a lot of help from others.
• Cooperative (-.25) - I am not openly rebellious, but I tend to be independent
• Emphasizes being with others; gregarious (-.25) - no
• Honest (-.24) - I am secretive, but not dishonest
• Warm (-.24) - no
• Pleasant (-.23) - ouch...
• Sincere (-.23) - I think so...but I can see how when I contrive to mirror people it looks, well, contrived
• Sympathetic (-.23) - I have become good at expressing sympathy in private situations
• Understanding (-.23) - yes
• Has social poise and presence; appears socially at ease (-.23) - people think I look like a snob, but I feel timid
• Has a clear-cut, internally consistent personality (-.22) - no
• Appears straightforward, forthright, candid in dealing with others (-.22) - I think yes, but I don't know how I appear
• Is turned to for advice and reassurance (-.20) - yes

Honestly, I still lean towards being a prickly variety of INFP, or I think that the pure Jungian types are just that - pure, theoretical types - and that I am simply an Introverted Rational and not purely Ti or Fi dominant. I also relate much more to common famous examples of INFP (more so INFP males, curioiusly...), and even my physical appearance has more of a dreamy, whimsical NF look to it.

so, outside of it being a recent discovery, having trouble recociling my type description with my gender, and having nuanced emotions (well i guess they are nuanced because when i experience them they can be confusing at first) i can identify with the bulk of your statements... i also can be emotionally dense in groups... i believe it is partially tied to a feeling of disconnection from their thoughts and motivations which creates a certain level of apathy... i think that mental absorption in concepts (rather than application of those concepts) is also a contributing factor... i frequently am treated as something between a sounding board and advisor when interacting with people one on one... i understand their position readily, and am good at predicting outcomes of their planned/potential actions... i find that thinking things through in that way in my own life removes much of the mystery, and due to my proximity to the situation i lose a great deal of that perspective if i'm not a good deal more methodical in my considerations... i also relate well to the sentiment that remaining more or less emotionally neutral tends to cause people to project mental states into my actions that are more closely tied to their own state than mine... it is funny how people can take precisely same reaction and construe it in so many ways... this has taught me to be very concise in my phrasing/diction when i care about the results...i could go into more correlating segments, but i am feeling tired...

when i take mbti tests i tend to land on intp/infp being a close call or as intp being a very clear cut result... i have had entp come up also... when i first read the types (prior to testing) i identified with intp quite strongly... i am not sure what level of use/interest any of thos will be to you, but there are my thoughts on this...

post scipt:

the exclusion concerning a recent discovery was in reference to mirroring others (in case that was unclear)... i was interrupted several times while writing this, so it may be a bit disjointed...

Garbage_Doll
02-21-2017, 07:38 AM
so, outside of it being a recent discovery, having trouble recociling my type description with my gender, and having nuanced emotions (well i guess they are nuanced because when i experience them they can be confusing at first) i can identify with the bulk of your statements... i also can be emotionally dense in groups... i believe it is partially tied to a feeling of disconnection from their thoughts and motivations which creates a certain level of apathy... i think that mental absorption in concepts (rather than application of those concepts) is also a contributing factor... i frequently am treated as something between a sounding board and advisor when interacting with people one on one... i understand their position readily, and am good at predicting outcomes of their planned/potential actions... i find that thinking things through in that way in my own life removes much of the mystery, and due to my proximity to the situation i lose a great deal of that perspective if i'm not a good deal more methodical in my considerations... i also relate well to the sentiment that remaining more or less emotionally neutral tends to cause people to project mental states into my actions that are more closely tied to their own state than mine... it is funny how people can take precisely same reaction and construe it in so many ways... this has taught me to be very concise in my phrasing/diction when i care about the results...i could go into more correlating sefments, but i am feeling tired...

when i take mbti tests i tend to land on intp/infp being a close call or as intp being a very clear cut result... i have had entp come up also... when i first read the types (prior to testing) i identified with intp quite strongly... i am not sure what level of use/interest any of thos will be to you, but there are my thoughts on this...

Haha! I have not learned to be concise, clearly :lol:

It reads almost like a summary, except not sure what the bolded part is about. I may lose my perspective when I am personally involved in certain things (and I may lose my cool too....), but I don't know about the mystery bit. If you mean a preference to explore and see what happens instead of that Te logistics stuff....well, yeah.

Obfuscate
02-21-2017, 07:59 AM
Haha! I have not learned to be concise, clearly :lol:

It reads almost like a summary, except not sure what the bolded part is about. I may lose my perspective when I am personally involved in certain things (and I may lose my cool too....), but I don't know about the mystery bit. If you mean a preference to explore and see what happens instead of that Te logistics stuff....well, yeah.

i mean that i think planning ahead is dull... i like to react to the world more than i like to prepare for it... i like to look at things through the lens of all functions (i lean towards some more than others obviously), but not ahead of time...

i do like exploration, but it wasn't precisely what i had meant in that moment... on the other hand, what i just described does sound a lot like exploration (so i guess you were accurate or quite close)...

Spartan26
03-26-2017, 03:45 AM
There is also the fact that the standard MBTI descriptions of INTPs and career suggestions lean very heavily toward STEM and academic things like computer programming, math, engineering, academia. These are definitely good options for INTPs But there is a significant number of us that are more drawn toward creative jobs and hobbies. Some of us have followed that inclination into actual career paths. I'm thinking myself, stuck, jigglypuff, Spartan26 etc. (I'll add Sappho to the list even though she's come around to calling herself intj). There are others who are just pulled very significantly toward some form of expressive arts, like Dirac and Makers!*. It's not something that we all share across the board, but I feel like there are enough of us that it necessitates a partial rewrite of the type description.

I remember taking tests, not necessarily named mbti but loosely based, as far back as high school and writer came up. Also technical writer and journalist got thrown about. At the time it was something I liked to do but wasn't considering it as a career path. Journalist I tried to nix two times in college because of things that I thought would drain me. First job out of college - magazine, so go figure. But it was creative work not hard features. Sometimes I'll look at lists of career paths and creative fields are so broadly written that I don't know if the people who devise the list really have insight into all the possible positions or what would be good for someone's type or not.

Case in point, had a convo earlier today with a commercial director, who might be an INTP. The subject of networking came up. Specifically how it related to our stagnant careers. Then, being a self starter. Then, motivation. Then, follow through. We laughed but it was pretty freckin' sad in a way, too. But we both knew of creatively marginal, at best, go getters who seems to bounce from job to job more like traveling snake oil salesmen. By the time people see through them, they're on to the next gig. Likely paying more than the previous one. Compensation is another topic that didn't come up this time as it related to us but it's something that's also thorn in the side of many intuitive creatives.

I could see how composing, painting, writing would be ideal for INTPs for the intensity of ideas, isolation in working on projects, stretching boundaries from what previously existed, but hustling for work, getting out, all the time, meeting people, forcing to make deadlines, constantly self promoting is a dance with the devil that we might not be so bad at but it would be a heavily forced activity.