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Thread: What do you think about abortion?

  1. #111
    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    The two people whose DNA mixed to form a child have a duty to that child once it enters the world. Period.

    Now can the particulars of the exact numbers of child support be reformed in certain cases? Probably. Is it unfair that women have a myriad of birth control options, including abortion, while men have very few? Yes.

    But the principle of taking care of your own is sound.

    If a man and woman are opposed to abortion/adoption and split up in the eighth month, and neither want to be single parents, who has the option to walk away? The woman is going to be the one in the hospital, pushing the baby out, and that baby is going to be put in her arms. If she walks away she's getting the cops called on her.

    There's a lot of scenarios in which shit happens and people have to just deal with it, men and women both. Child support for children is one of those things.

  2. #112
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    If a man and woman are opposed to abortion/adoption and split up in the eighth month, and neither want to be single parents, who has the option to walk away? The woman is going to be the one in the hospital, pushing the baby out, and that baby is going to be put in her arms. If she walks away she's getting the cops called on her.
    False equivalence. You're comparing a situation where abortion isn't an option to one where it is.

    You're also denying the existence of Safe Haven laws.

    The mother absolutely can walk away in the above scenario--but if the state knows who the father is, he probably can't. Can't speak for all states but I've no doubt in mine he'd still be on the hook for 18 years.

    The two people whose DNA mixed to form a child have a duty to that child once it enters the world. Period.
    Clearly not true.
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  3. #113
    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    False equivalence. You're comparing a situation where abortion isn't an option to one where it is.

    You're also denying the existence of Safe Haven laws.

    The mother absolutely can walk away in the above scenario--but if the state knows who the father is, he probably can't. Can't speak for all states but I've no doubt in mine he'd still be on the hook for 18 years.



    Clearly not true.
    True, if the woman goes through the proper protocols to relinquish her rights, then she will be free from criminal persecution. But the burden is on her to figure out to do with the baby, not the father.

    The two parents have an ethical duty. Now whether they choose to fulfill it or not, is up to them.

    Also child support works both ways. I've known where a woman has had a baby taken away from her custody and she was chagrined to find out she owed child support to the foster parents. Yup, still your responsibility. You made the choice, can't change your mind after the fact. Works for men too. I only wish there was more ways for them to prevent pregnancy so it didn't happen--that is where the real travesty is. It sucks enough that a kid's dad wants nothing to do with them, to not even pay for pampers?

  4. #114
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    And this rationale is what gets men stuck with child support when they can prove the kid isn't theirs. It's woman vs. man when the woman has the choice to destroy the man's future.

    We're no longer living in a world where an orgasm should have that potential.
    Saw a news segment on a case of that exact same nature. Was one of the US states, Alabama maybe?

    Wife had affair, got up the duff by some guy. The husband got stung for CS because "it was in the best interest of the child"

    Guffaw!

    (Mostly) Men do get financially raped, it's seriously fucked.

    I'm not even a huge fan of men, but if some women don't stand up for their rights, then they have no chance.
    When tyranny becomes law
    Rebellion becomes duty.



  5. #115
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Child support shouldn't be paid directly from the absent parent to the new one. The question of how much the state should support the single parent and how much the state should demand from the absent parent should be separate. And a married couple with a kid should get a bigger payment than a single parent with a kid. We should be incentivizing and making it easier for parents to stay together, because we know that it makes a huge difference in the kids' chance to succeed in life.

  6. #116
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
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    There's someone I know pretty well right now who is seemingly being 'baby trapped'...he's not at all a trashy guy...just made one bad choice in the weeks following the end of a 3 year relationship. She already has one kid that she's raising without a father. This guy I know is a stand up human being and will do right by the child...even though he cringes at the crappy situation of being a part time parent to a kid that has a step sibling. It's not a situation where a relationship between he and the mom is going to happen. In his eyes, if the choice were about what's best for the kid, it'd be abortion (his parents were split, and he hated going back and forth and having to choose between).

    In his case, she's only 4 weeks along. It was basically just an innocent hook up, and she's being all flaky about it to him...sort of teasing that she'll terminate, but then getting all wishy washy about it.

    I do really understand having a hard disinterest in volountarily partaking in medical procedures...but I also feel pretty bad for this guy who actually has his life together for the most part, with a pretty solid 3 year plan ahead for himself that's basically being crushed right now.
    The hook up thing was really out of character for the guy, too.

    He's been a class act about the whole situation given how shameful he feels about it...not wanting to force her to do anything to her body unwillingly, but still wanting so much better for himself and for his children. It's tough for a feminist guy in that sort of situation, I think.
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  7. #117
    TJ TeresaJ's Avatar
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    I know this is unfortunately unrealistic given our evolutionary character. We are primates. We're lucky enough to even grasp the connection between sex and procreation.

    But people - fucking adults - really really really should not have sex with someone they would prefer not to procreate with. That's true of rob's friend and @Sinny that goes double for your cousin.

    Men who are in actual relationships with women they don't trust and then act dismayed when she tries to screw him over.... No excuse. Same for a woman sleeping with a jerk.

    We fucking know better. We are more than our primal urges.

  8. #118
    TJ TeresaJ's Avatar
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    Having said that, I think the way to handle it is to have a baseline of support for everyone.

    UBI for every adult.

    High quality primary care and family counseling freely available.

    A robust works progress association.

    Programs that clearly benefit most people with high taxes to support them.

  9. #119
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    I agree with you ultimately that people shouldn't in theory make stupid decisions... but they do.

    And I don't think it's fair or natural to punish somebody for life for a moment of weakness.
    I'd support Universal support.

    It's not like the option of financial & legal abortion would be taken up by many men.. For most of us just knowing we have a child in the world changes everything for us, and we couldn't just walk away from that. My cousin, although he became a father in a situation whereby if given the choice he would of had a physical abortion, knows he has a son in the world now and he couldn't turn in back on him.

    But in order to level the "legal playing field" I think the option should be there.
    The emotional/moral/ethical playing field could never be equal, between women and men... because it's ultimately women who have all the agency in growing & birthing a child.

    In recent months, I've endeavoured to put myself in the shoes of a man... and in today's world, it can be a really scary & desolate place. They are treated as second class citizens, as society still hold the notion of "woman and children" coming first, despite the fact that's no longer a evolutionary necessity.

    (Also, I'm referring more so to the western world ^^ ... as the rest of the world still have serious issues treating women as equals)
    Last edited by Sinny; 09-12-2019 at 11:40 AM.
    When tyranny becomes law
    Rebellion becomes duty.



  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    Works for men too. I only wish there was more ways for them to prevent pregnancy so it didn't happen--that is where the real travesty is.
    There is. A vasectomy is roughly equivalent to an abortion in terms of risk and invasiveness. These men want to force procedures on women to avoid the situation but didn't undergo one themselves when they had the chance? I don't feel sorry for them. Never will.

    OTOH, more temporary forms of men's birth control keeps getting quashed by the pharmaceutical industry because they assume men wouldn't take it when the available data suggests otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robcore View Post
    There's someone I know pretty well right now who is seemingly being 'baby trapped'...
    How was he trapped? He used a condom and she got it out of the trash to inseminate herself?

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