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Thread: Andrew Jackson, Early Native American Wars

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    Andrew Jackson, Early Native American Wars

    Quote Originally Posted by Osito Polar View Post
    I don't think you're at all considering the native American portion of that equation, ferrus. It depended a *LOT* on how the tribes in question reacted to the newcomers. For example, in southern New England the tribe my grandfather still has some ties to called themselves "The Destroyers" in their native language. Their profession was essentially killing their neighbors, stealing their things and then either keeping them or selling them to other neighbors at the tidy profit margin you get from outright theft. You'll note that among my other ancestors are Norwegians, who once they immigrated to the same part of the United States seemed to get along pretty well with the descendants of this particular bunch of native Americans.

    Anyway, if you show up in a boat and park next to these guys, you're going to have a different relationship with them than if you land next to some farmers like you would in the South.
    The Lenape and the Iroquois were both farmers (dunno about further North, though). I think it might just be a matter of chronology. By the 19th century, no one was left from those groups living in their ancestral regions, practicing their ancestral lifestyle. I'm not quite sure what happened to the Lenape. William Penn is supposed to have had good relations with them, but I don't know if that's another historical myth, or if relations deteriorated after his death.

    Also, regarding Andrew Jackson.... both Northern and Southern states cast electoral votes for him, although the North only largely did so for his second term. In both cases, he won by what we today call a landslide.





    And the electoral map for James K. Polk, the man largely responsible for the Mexican-American war, looks similar to the second Jackson map. No clear North/South rift. And Polk actively campaigned in favor of Manifest Destiny. The Mexican-American war was not supported unanimously. Henry David Thoreau wound up in jail for protesting it, causing him to write "Civil Disobedience". Some Whig congressmen voted against it, but in 1848, they went with Zachary Taylor, a hero of the Mexican-American war. Many of the men involved in that war and the acquisition of Western Territory, it is true, later fought on the side of the Union.

    This man was not involved in the Mexican-American war, but he did fight on the union side.

    I don't mean to intend that I believe the Confederacy was fighting for a valid cause, but I do think the Northern textbooks I encountered in school painted every bit an incomplete picture of things as I'm sure the Southern ones must. I certainly never learned about John Chivington.



    I also found this really cool cartoon from 1848:

    Last edited by msg_v2; 06-21-2014 at 11:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slab_Bulkhead View Post
    The Lenape and the Iroquois were both farmers (dunno about further North, though). I think it might just be a matter of chronology. By the 19th century, no one was left from those groups living in their ancestral regions, practicing their ancestral lifestyle. I'm not quite sure what happened to the Lenape. William Penn is supposed to have had good relations with them, but I don't know if that's another historical myth, or if relations deteriorated after his death.

    Also, regarding Andrew Jackson.... both Northern and Southern states cast electoral votes for him, although the North only largely did so for his second term. In both cases, he won by what we today call a landslide.
    I don't think any of that had a thing to do with my post, but okay. I mean, neither the Iroquois nor the Lenape are from New England. And the electoral college has nothing to do with whether or not someone is southern.
    Last edited by Osito Polar; 06-21-2014 at 10:13 PM.
    "I don't have psychological problems." --Madrigal

    "When you write about shooting Polemarch in the head, that's more like a first-person view, like you're there looking down the sight of the gun." --Utisz

    David Wong, regarding Chicago
    Six centuries ago, the pre-Colombian natives who settled here named this region with a word which in their language means "the Mouth of Shadow". Later, the Iroquois who showed up and inexplicably slaughtered every man, woman and child renamed it "Seriously, Fuck that Place". When French explorer Jacques Marquette passed through the area he marked his map with a drawing of a brownish blob emerging from between the Devil's buttocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osito Polar View Post
    I don't think any of that had a thing to do with my post, but okay.
    Perhaps not directly, but if we are dealing with the role of the North and the South with regards to Native Americans, it seems relevant. The issue of the Mexican-American War is relevant, because it meant that once the U.S. won that war, it resulted in more settlement westward and more broken treaties. The United States would not have conquered that land if they did not intend to settle it. And they settled it much more intensively than the Spanish/Mexicans did.

    I mean, neither the Iroquois nor the Lenape are from New England. And the electoral college has nothing to do with whether or not someone is southern.
    As I said, I'm less familiar with the tribes farther north than New York. The electoral college determines where someone's political support was strongest among the percentage of the population that could and did actually vote.
    Last edited by msg_v2; 06-21-2014 at 10:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slab_Bulkhead View Post
    As I said, I'm less familiar with the tribes farther north than New York.
    Or farther east, in this case.

    The electoral college determines where someone's political support was strongest among the percentage of the population that could and did actually vote.
    What I said was that he was a Southerner. You seem to be making the assumption that people at the time were so polarized that a Northerner couldn't win in the South and vice versa regardless of who was the better candidate. And he *did* do better in the South, just he did okay in the North too. I would attribute that to him having been an intelligent candidate who ran a good campaign. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with the man's politics but you have to respect his skill and intelligence.
    "I don't have psychological problems." --Madrigal

    "When you write about shooting Polemarch in the head, that's more like a first-person view, like you're there looking down the sight of the gun." --Utisz

    David Wong, regarding Chicago
    Six centuries ago, the pre-Colombian natives who settled here named this region with a word which in their language means "the Mouth of Shadow". Later, the Iroquois who showed up and inexplicably slaughtered every man, woman and child renamed it "Seriously, Fuck that Place". When French explorer Jacques Marquette passed through the area he marked his map with a drawing of a brownish blob emerging from between the Devil's buttocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osito Polar View Post
    Or farther east, in this case.



    What I said was that he was a Southerner. You seem to be making the assumption that people at the time were so polarized that a Northerner couldn't win in the South and vice versa regardless of who was the better candidate.
    Not at all. I'm saying that Jackson had a lot of Southern support, and that the North was not entirely hostile to him, either. Jackson signed the Indian removal act in 1830, and in any case his policy on Indians was well known by that point. He went on to win even more Northern states in 1832. It does not seem to have been an issue that the North had much of a problem with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slab_Bulkhead View Post
    Not at all. I'm saying that Jackson had a lot of Southern support, and that the North was not entirely hostile to him, either. Jackson signed the Indian removal act in 1830, and he went on to win even more Northern states in 1832. It does not seem to have been an issue that the North had much of a problem with.
    Again, I don't get how that had anything to do with the issue of whether or not he was a Southerner.
    "I don't have psychological problems." --Madrigal

    "When you write about shooting Polemarch in the head, that's more like a first-person view, like you're there looking down the sight of the gun." --Utisz

    David Wong, regarding Chicago
    Six centuries ago, the pre-Colombian natives who settled here named this region with a word which in their language means "the Mouth of Shadow". Later, the Iroquois who showed up and inexplicably slaughtered every man, woman and child renamed it "Seriously, Fuck that Place". When French explorer Jacques Marquette passed through the area he marked his map with a drawing of a brownish blob emerging from between the Devil's buttocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osito Polar View Post
    Again, I don't get how that had anything to do with the issue of whether or not he was a Southerner.
    Well, his policies do not appear to have been anathema to Southern voters of the time, and he was born in a Southern state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slab_Bulkhead View Post
    Well, his policies do not appear to have been anathema to Southern voters of the time, and he was born in a Southern state.
    Hence I was saying that he was a Southerner.

    Your move.
    "I don't have psychological problems." --Madrigal

    "When you write about shooting Polemarch in the head, that's more like a first-person view, like you're there looking down the sight of the gun." --Utisz

    David Wong, regarding Chicago
    Six centuries ago, the pre-Colombian natives who settled here named this region with a word which in their language means "the Mouth of Shadow". Later, the Iroquois who showed up and inexplicably slaughtered every man, woman and child renamed it "Seriously, Fuck that Place". When French explorer Jacques Marquette passed through the area he marked his map with a drawing of a brownish blob emerging from between the Devil's buttocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osito Polar View Post
    Hence I was saying that he was a Southerner.

    Your move.
    I would say he was a Southerner, but he was not unacceptable to Northerners.

    I disagree with the man's politics but you have to respect his skill and intelligence.
    I think both him and Polk were bastards (even by the standards of the times they lived in), but they were also successful at accomplishing their own goals, and there is a certain grudging admiration for that. It seems to have been made easier by the fact that what they wanted was politically popular.

    Agression in general seems to be quite politically popular, at least until the point is reached where things start to seem more evenly matched. Most people don't seem to have much of a moral objection to quick and easy displays of domination, even if there is no moral justification for the initiation of such acts. If it starts to look hard, that's when public opinion begins to shift. But, that's another story.

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    In terms of New England native American/colonial relations, they started off like this around 1637 --

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pequot_War

    Things didn't get a lot better from there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Philip%27s_War

    In short, they were terrified of native Americans based on these events. Many homes from that time period are built to maximize their defensibility against attackers. There are protected areas on the second story of the home where people could hide out and fire at the outside from cover.
    "I don't have psychological problems." --Madrigal

    "When you write about shooting Polemarch in the head, that's more like a first-person view, like you're there looking down the sight of the gun." --Utisz

    David Wong, regarding Chicago
    Six centuries ago, the pre-Colombian natives who settled here named this region with a word which in their language means "the Mouth of Shadow". Later, the Iroquois who showed up and inexplicably slaughtered every man, woman and child renamed it "Seriously, Fuck that Place". When French explorer Jacques Marquette passed through the area he marked his map with a drawing of a brownish blob emerging from between the Devil's buttocks.

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