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Thread: On global warming and Human Nature

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    Anthropos mhc's Avatar
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    On global warming and Human Nature

    While i dont dispute the effects humans are having on the environment, i see the main pursuit of action to be for political or monetary gain. for example, if we take the problem of climate change and break it down to its basics to determine cause and solution, we have high carbon levels as the cause (or so we've been told), leading to a reduction in carbon emissions as the solution.

    why is it then, that we now have things such as an emissions trading scheme and carbon taxes as a means of a solution? is not the solution to simply stop burning carbon products, or to stop emitting carbon? ah but the economy i hear you say. if the world is in as much peril as we are lead to believe, is it not just better to grind the economy to a halt and stop emitting?

    we are not destroying the earth, we are destroying our way of life on earth as we currently know it. nature (nearly by definition) will eventually balance out everything. less ice and higher temps means more water in the air(humidity). higher humidity with warmer temperatures are the perfect conditions for vegetative growth, which would eventually consume any excess carbon. even the term excess carbon is not correct, it would more accurately be expressed as "excess carbon for that which we currently find desirable"
    Just look at the blue sky

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    Senior Member Makers!*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhc View Post
    why is it then, that we now have things such as an emissions trading scheme and carbon taxes as a means of a solution? is not the solution to simply stop burning carbon products, or to stop emitting carbon? ah but the economy i hear you say. if the world is in as much peril as we are lead to believe, is it not just better to grind the economy to a halt and stop emitting?
    Yes, it would seemingly be better to grind the economy to a halt. From everything I know about the problem, we are facing disaster, which would make a failed economy look trivial, if drastic measures are not taken.

    we are not destroying the earth, we are destroying our way of life on earth as we currently know it. nature (nearly by definition) will eventually balance out everything. less ice and higher temps means more water in the air(humidity). higher humidity with warmer temperatures are the perfect conditions for vegetative growth, which would eventually consume any excess carbon. even the term excess carbon is not correct, it would more accurately be expressed as "excess carbon for that which we currently find desirable"
    It may not be this simple. The earth may not rejuvenate. Our atmosophere is dependent on a delicately balanced composition of molecules and carbon can't escape. So we could have continued heating, exponentially increased by feedbacks loops, like the tundra's thawing and releasing more carbon. The ice caps, i.e. giant heat reflectors, could completely recede, leaving giant heat absorbers, i.e. the ocean. And as a result, our planet could become completely uninhabitable for life as we know it.

    We were never meant to live so far from the earth. Money, Private property, everything that has engendered this situation needs to go. That's my opinion. Godspeed.

    Last edited by Makers!*; 06-29-2014 at 06:50 PM.

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    Anthropos mhc's Avatar
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    as i said, i dont doubt the impact we have on the environment, i see the effects in my everyday life. but i dont fully accept the threat of climate change, not because i dont think that its plausible, but rather that there is too much sensationalist media reports now days that discredits all media in my view. you do raise some good points tho for passing a point of no return. in other regards, i am pretty much along the same thinking as you on

    We were never meant to live so far from the earth. Money, Private property, everything that has engendered this situation needs to go.
    if the situation is as dire as is reported, i agree, the economy is rather trivial. still, the way the issue is used as a means to gorge more money out of people, provide political gains and further divide economic classes irritates me
    Just look at the blue sky

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    Senior Member Makers!*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhc View Post
    as i said, i dont doubt the impact we have on the environment, i see the effects in my everyday life. but i dont fully accept the threat of climate change, not because i dont think that its plausible, but rather that there is too much sensationalist media reports now days that discredits all media in my view. you do raise some good points tho for passing a point of no return. in other regards, i am pretty much along the same thinking as you on

    if the situation is as dire as is reported, i agree, the economy is rather trivial. still, the way the issue is used as a means to gorge more money out of people, provide political gains and further divide economic classes irritates me
    Hmmm, i can see how the monetary division the issue creates are irritating, though the facts seem pretty resolute, and I'm not so sure the media can sensationalize them enough. In a world where a celebrity baby gets as much attention as sweeping humanitarian crisises, people need to beat over the head, repeatedly and with great force, before they take action. Until FOX new cries out, climate change will end humanity you stupid fucks, do something! or the elite have no interest in your survival! I don't know if much will change. But that's my pessimism talking. We can strive for better.
    Last edited by Makers!*; 07-10-2014 at 09:53 PM.

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    Anthropos mhc's Avatar
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    i guess if world leaders were to come out today and say from now on, there will be no power generation Mondays, Wednesdays and fridays, i might be more inclined to believe the reports. as it stands, they are instead using climate change for more revenue and control of other nations by proxy (aka, ETS). what can i do as an individual? i am already forced to consume as little as possible, and pretty much restricted to bare necessities anyhow.

    and i think pessimism is warranted in this day and age.
    Last edited by mhc; 06-29-2014 at 10:31 PM.
    Just look at the blue sky

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    Senior Member Makers!*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhc View Post
    i guess if world leaders were to come out today and say from now one, there will be no power generation Mondays, Wednesdays and fridays, i might be more inclined to believe the reports. as it stands, they are instead using climate change for more revenue and control of other nations by proxy (aka, ETS). as it stands, what can i do as an individual? i am already forced to consume as little as possible, and pretty much restricted to bare necessities anyhow.

    and i think pessimism is warranted in this day and age.
    Restricting power is the kind of solution we'll need, along with many others. What makes this challenge so difficult is that'll it require a major revision in the way people go about their lives. It'll go against all the traditional narratives our nation is founded on. Additionally, the short term cost could be painful, but no more so than those people are now enduring in India, where one quarter of their land is facing desertification with the threat of massive food shortages.

    Should the sacrifices be made, I think something beautiful could emerge. I'd don't know what it'll take to get to that point. Hope, maybe. That's probably the best thing an inidividual can do; don't lose hope. Maybe world leaders will come out with solutions. Though, I wouldn't be opposed to handing out flyers, organizing, demonstating etc. That would take alot of planning beyond here.
    Last edited by Makers!*; 06-29-2014 at 10:05 PM.

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    Senior Member Makers!*'s Avatar
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    Here is a good bit of black humor from a Woody Allen film that somehow seems fitting. Just imagine the question of God is replaced with "What if we face imminent destruction because of the greed inherent to human nature?" or something....you get the idea.


    Boris: Sonja, what if there is no God?

    Sonja: Boris Dimitrovich! Are you joking?

    Boris: What if we’re just a bunch of absurd people, who are running around with no rhyme or reason?

    Sonja: But if there is no God, then life has no meaning. Why go on living, why not just kill yourself?

    Boris: Well, let’s not get hysterical; I could be wrong. I’d hate to blow my brains out and then read in the papers they found something [pointing upwards].

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    Persona Oblongata OrionzRevenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhc View Post
    While i dont dispute the effects humans are having on the environment, i see the main pursuit of action to be for political or monetary gain. for example, if we take the problem of climate change and break it down to its basics to determine cause and solution, we have high carbon levels as the cause (or so we've been told), leading to a reduction in carbon emissions as the solution.

    why is it then, that we now have things such as an emissions trading scheme and carbon taxes as a means of a solution? is not the solution to simply stop burning carbon products, or to stop emitting carbon? ah but the economy i hear you say. if the world is in as much peril as we are lead to believe, is it not just better to grind the economy to a halt and stop emitting?

    we are not destroying the earth, we are destroying our way of life on earth as we currently know it. nature (nearly by definition) will eventually balance out everything. less ice and higher temps means more water in the air(humidity). higher humidity with warmer temperatures are the perfect conditions for vegetative growth, which would eventually consume any excess carbon. even the term excess carbon is not correct, it would more accurately be expressed as "excess carbon for that which we currently find desirable"
    Firstly addressing schemes like Carbon taxes or cap & trade.

    EXAMPLE:There are today folks making money in Germany by renting roof space to install Solar panels and selling the kilowatt Hours to the utilities. This is possible because the government/utilities have guaranteed these folks that they will buy the kilowatt Hours at today's fixed rate for the next 20 years. Now, normally this sounds like a silly guarantee given that Utility rates have always tended to increase over time. However, think what happens when solar starts really taking hold of market share??? Holy crap, the fossil fuel industry just slashed prices to out compete solar!

    Too, Solar delivers @ about $1.00 per watt. In just a few years everyone expects solar to deliver @ about 50 cent per watt. PV solar, like computer technology is rapidly improving.

    Also, if a nation invest in green manufacturing technology how can they compete on the world market with nations making stuff cheap & dirty???

    It is complicated.

    Secondly, yes the planet can, given eons of time, re-balance the carbon cycle. Irrespective of what organisms/ecosystems can adapt along the way. Expectations that warmer & wetter conditions (as a global average) will cause a spurt in Carbon eating vegetation and solve our problems aren't reasonable.

    Here are some things to ponder:

    Greater yields of vegetation rapidly lead to larger populations of herbivores and the animals that dine on them. Or, they mostly rapidly rot & decay in the soil at the end of their life-span. Either way, Digestion or fermentation leads to the release of Green house gases (Carbon Dioxide or Methane for the most part).

    Given enough time, our planet will manage to lock up a significant portion of carbon underground, but this points to the problem.

    Think about the origins of Fossil Fuels. Bogs and swamps where stagnant aquatic environments don't allow enough dissolved oxygen to mix in order to have the pathways of digestion and fermentation that cause carbon's return to the atmosphere as carbohydrates.

    Bogs and swamps are rather rare ecosystems, but over millions of years they have managed to lock-up trillions of tons of Carbon that humans unearthed and rapidly liberated back into the skies over a couple of hundred years.

    Seashells also lock-up kilotons of carbon over millennia that we liberate to make our concrete buildings.

    / 2 cents
    Creativity is the residue of time wasted. ~ Albert Einstein

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    Anthropos mhc's Avatar
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    where i am, the government subsidised solar investment to the point where one in four households here now have solar power. new installations have been put on hold in some areas due to the grid not being able to handle the load. whats now happening?

    the government no longer pays for the power generated by people with solar panels, it simply could not afford it. even worse, power companies are losing so much money, they are restructuring their fees to generate the same amount of money, without producing the same amount of power! so whoever can not afford solar panels is now worse off financially due to the increases in power cost brought about by solar panels.

    power companies even vocalised the idea of charging people with panels more for electricity ?!?! what the?? greed greed greed.

    we also have the next big thing in power swindling, theoretical power generation. yes you heard right, theoretical power generation, and we pay for it! it works like this:

    end user pays inflated price for power to cover cost of reimbursing companies asked to shut down
    company x contracts company y to shut of power when requested
    company y usually draws 1MW from the grid, for arguments sake
    company x now has a theoretical power generation of 1 megawatt
    temp hits 40 deg at 2pm, everyone turns on air con, current infrastructure cannot meet demand
    power company rings company x, says give us 1 MW
    company x rings company y and tells them to shut down and is reimbursed more $$ than they would have made if they kept their factory or what ever running.

    when politicians babble on about how the cost of power is expensive they are not lying, but they will not tell you that it is because they are contracted to pay for theoretical energy, which is more expensive than real energy. the higher expense might seem ludicrous since no power is actually being generated, however on paper it works out cheaper than building new infrastructure to actually make more electricity. what happens as the population keeps expanding? good point!
    Last edited by mhc; 06-30-2014 at 03:41 PM.
    Just look at the blue sky

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    Senior Member jyng1's Avatar
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    My niece lives in Brisbane, has solar panels, and hasn't paid a power bill in three years.

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