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Thread: MH17. Anybody?

  1. #1
    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    MH17. Anybody?

    I'm a little surprised nobody has started this thread yet.

    I've rarely seen the Western press so hysterical and blatantly biased, to the point of reducing serious newspapers to tabloids, over an issue.

    It is said the flight was diverted 200km off-course, which is why it was flying through this conflict area. But seeing as how much misinformation there is on the subject (I'm sure Obama was crushed that it was not 20-something Americans on the flight but actually only one Dutch/American guy - better luck next time, amigo), if this really was a regular route for passenger jets, why in the fuck did the Ukraine not close that airspace? I basically agree with Putin on the fact that, due to this having occured in Ukrainian airspace and over a known conflict area, this is first and foremost the responsibility of the Ukraine.

    But here's a really strange, equally hysterical and biased article, this time coming from the opposite side, a source and author I've always liked to read. He suggests it was the Ukrainian military that shot down the plane, and not the rebels.

    It Was Putin's Missile! by Pepe Escobar (Asia Times), July 18

    Here's some of what he says:

    And then there's the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller working at Kiev's tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher; for others, he's never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account - not accidentally - has been shut down, and he has disappeared; his friends are now desperately looking for him. I managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online - and now copies and an English translation are available.

    These are some of his crucial tweets:

    "The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48 pm)"
    "If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)"
    "As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00)"
    "Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)"
    "The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn't. (7.15)"
    "The military confirm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. (7.31)"
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Heh. We've been here years now.

  2. #2
    Mens bona regnum possidet ferrus's Avatar
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    Well, some of the reason it was flying lower than usual and off a different course seems to be due to thunderstorms in the area.

    The tragedy has, however, raised questions over the wisdom of commercial airlines continuing to fly over conflict zones. Airlines currently take their cue on risk from national governments, who are responsible for the airspace over their territories, although states have an interest in keeping flight paths open because they are able to collect overflight fees.
    That's kind of disconcerting.

    By the way that site you posted has a strange assortment of writers... including a section devoted to Spenglerites, who seem to share admiration for such diverse figures as Robert Musil, Richard Nixon and Vladimir Putin with articles such as 'Common traits bind Chinese and Jews'.
    Die Logik ist keine Lehre, sondern ein Spiegelbild der Welt. Die Logik ist transcendental. - Wittgenstein

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    Now we know... Asteroids Champion ACow's Avatar
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    The newspapers are going absolutely batshit insane, and printing anything without any real sort of investigation.

    When we heard about it, both me and the wife said "why would Ukranian/Russian people shoot down a malaysian jet?"

    Of course, like most things in life, incompetence on behalf of one side is the most likely outcome, but I doubt we'll ever know the truth and it will be lost in the fog of war.

    There is the possibility of a false flag attack (we know they happen), but given that we'll never know the truth and both sides are blaming each other, who knows... The only thing that would really make that look like a legitimate theory to me is if some previously "unconnected" nation uses this as the pretext for something else...which is not to say that it didn't happen, just that there's no way to draw a proper conclusion that it did.

    I always just assume incompetence/mistakes first, and when dealing with the military/warzone/fog-of-war, that's almost a given...so seems inherently more likely...

  4. #4
    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrus View Post
    By the way that site you posted has a strange assortment of writers... including a section devoted to Spenglerites, who seem to share admiration for such diverse figures as Robert Musil, Richard Nixon and Vladimir Putin with articles such as 'Common traits bind Chinese and Jews'.
    LOL, it does give you some wtf moments, but I started reading it at least 10 years ago, they always had interesting background articles on Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Heh. We've been here years now.

  5. #5
    Mens bona regnum possidet ferrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACow View Post
    Of course, like most things in life, incompetence on behalf of one side is the most likely outcome
    It's not really difficult to see how it could be possible to confuse one 10,000m high object with another. And given many of the rebels are inexperienced and not formally militarily trained or with access to the technology or data that would identify the object, you'd have to say they were more likely to make a mistake.

    Not that it really matters for Putin. His whole game has been to sow discord and those parts of the world with significant Russian minorities unstable and restive. In fact this isn't even his policy - Transnistria has been played under this trick for a long time, as has parts of Southern Estonia. Many of which have had Russian populations bussed into them over the last 200 years by Russian nationalists of various (sometimes overt, sometimes covert stripes) and have oscillated between favoured and stigmatised ethnics groups, with little to no alligence to the current governemt. Oh these bases and others he's continued to make his pretext, that large parts of the former Soviet Union are ungovernable by their current governments, all too well, and the fact that within Ukrainian airspace (and not even in Crimea!) the government has failed to protect a decidedly neutral aircraft just kind of makes it all the more glaring. The cynic in me doesn't think Putin has made a mistake at all. The West isn't going to do shit, and his local population are prepared to accept whatever Russia Today style fascistic and hypernationalistic propaganda and conspiracy theories he spews out because the mood of the country is very reactionary and xenophobic right now. Even the Orthodox church and the cossacks are back in full force.

    Actually the fact that it is so unlikely to have major international ramifications beyond a few bloodless sanctions - despite the breathless nonsense the papers are publishing - is probably why a thread wasn't made beforehand. The people of this forum are good at sniffing out BS.
    Die Logik ist keine Lehre, sondern ein Spiegelbild der Welt. Die Logik ist transcendental. - Wittgenstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    (I'm sure Obama was crushed that it was not 20-something Americans on the flight but actually only one Dutch/American guy - better luck next time, amigo)
    Obama is an extreme T. He isn't considered overly "professorial" for nothing. He doesn't get emotionally "crushed."

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    wetback Space Invaders Champion Fitz's Avatar
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    Someone should just make Putin have an accident already. a really embarrassing one. like death from internal bleeding from a massive dragon dildo.

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    Member MacGuffin's Avatar
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    A few pro-Russian rebels fucked up and shot down a civilian airliner.

    No one will ever be held personally accountable.

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    Persona Oblongata OrionzRevenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrus View Post
    It's not really difficult to see how it could be possible to confuse one 10,000m high object with another. And given many of the rebels are inexperienced and not formally militarily trained or with access to the technology or data that would identify the object, you'd have to say they were more likely to make a mistake.

    ...
    In the post 9/11 world, I doubt it needs be a false identification scenario like Korean Air Lines Flight 007 or Iran Air Flight 655.


    It would simply be a he said - she said if not for the Russian-backed rebels obstructing the investigation, and knowing that only Putin has the power to cause or prevent said obstruction. Especially in the face of Obama's public decree that it was a SAM launched from rebel controlled turf. Thus, Putin's counter-claim that it was the fault of the US/NATO-backed Ukrainian government is insufferable. Putin understands and often speaks in forceful terms and I think it is a time for clarity of purpose from the US/NATO. I think it is time to speak in terms that Putin obviously understands.
    Creativity is the residue of time wasted. ~ Albert Einstein

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    The Pompatus of Love C.J.Woolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    A few pro-Russian rebels fucked up and shot down a civilian airliner.

    No one will ever be held personally accountable.
    I agree. The captain of USS Vincennes was not disciplined for mistakenly shooting down an Iranian airliner, while the captain of USS Stark was disciplined for hesitating to fire when Iraqi fighter launched an Exocet missile and hit her. Hell, the entire "War on Terror" is based on the principle that is better to be too trigger-happy than it is to risk being attacked again.
    Your gardening sucks and your avocados ain't fruitin'. -- Sappho the Maestro

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