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Thread: Physically Resisting Arrest should be a Serious Crime.

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    Persona Oblongata OrionzRevenge's Avatar
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    Physically Resisting Arrest should be a Serious Crime.

    The laws typically consider the potential risk to the public and society as well as the actual insult. Yet, in most jurisdictions physically resisting arrest is a Misdemeanor.

    Whereas there simply is no safe way to subdue a person that decides to not comply with an officer's attempting to affect an arrest, or simply wanting said person to assume a certain posture or position in order to assure the safety of all concerned,

    And whereas we see time and time again how these situations can lead to injury or death.

    And whereas, rightly or wrongly, the officers involved are very often accused of brutality and this often leads to tax payers footing the bill for expensive liability suites,

    And whereas, rightly or wrongly, reaction to these events can lead to civil unrest and explosive jeopardy to the innocent community at large,

    I think the laws ought to reflect these very common insults to the public good.

    I think physically resisting arrest ought to be a felony of some weight and, like domestic violence, there ought to be a mandatory cooling-off period of incarceration without benefit of bond.

    We also should precede implementation of these tougher sanctions with a public discussion as to the grave risk of said behavior.

    A cursory review of the police logs posted on my local news' website reveals that 10% of the local arrest include a charge of resisting, and there seems to be an endemic attitude towards non-compliance in this regard. Society simply can't afford the cost.

    Here is yet another example of death due to non-compliance.

    Creativity is the residue of time wasted. ~ Albert Einstein

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    Now we know... Asteroids Champion ACow's Avatar
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    So yes, i'm torn.

    I come at this without, i feel, a certain level of naivette. I've worked some bars and football clubs in uni, had to escort people out, sparred with resisting people, and am intimately familiar with both applying (and having applied to me) chokeholds. The one in the video either looks like the wrong one to use, or that it applied incorrectly, no doubt due to the man's size, poor training, or just the tension of the situation. There is a reason that you'll be hard pressed removing chokeholds from law enforcement and resisting arrests, and that is that its one of the few techniques that lets you relatively easily subdue a resisting person bigger than you that theoretically results in the person making a simple recovery after application (short of drugging, tazing, breaking or dislocating things, and the public does not have the stomach for that...). Of course, this all assumes you actually apply a proper blood-based sleeper-hold, not an asphyxiating hold...and given the subtle difference, poor training, and just chaotic nature of physical confrontation, the two will probably happen together far more often than we would otherwise like.

    On the other hand, law enforcement and prison/arrest stats are so absolutely broken in the US, with such stats as a worldwide statistical outlier, that something is clearly wrong with arrests, courts, and the prison system. And giving more power to these institutions seems like putting propellant on a fire...so i dunno...

    Fuck.

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    Persona Oblongata OrionzRevenge's Avatar
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    ^^^On a tangential note:

    In the US, the most notorious outcome of resisting arrest was the Rodney King case which, among many other lesser insults to the public good, resulted in a completely innocent man (Reginald Denning) being stoned with bricks and suffering server permanent brain damage.

    One of the factors that contributed to King's relentless beat-down with batons was that the LAPD had just recently banned chokeholds due to prior bad outcomes. Yet, the department didn't provide the officers with any other means to affect take-down.

    But we see even with tasers, rubber bullets, or bean-bag shotgun loads the same potential for injury or death.
    Creativity is the residue of time wasted. ~ Albert Einstein

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    Of course people are going to resist arrest.

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    Anthropos mhc's Avatar
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    whether imposing tougher penalties for resisting arrest would be effective or not may be questionable. generally speaking, most people that find themselves in these situations are not contemplating any future consequences, and thus may not be deterred by any type penalties. with this in mind, an alternative means of apprehension with less risk for everyone would still be needed.
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    What exactly did that big guy get arrested for? From what I've read, he broke up a fight and had a history of illegally selling cigarettes. I agree that he would have likely been fine in the long run had he simply complied with being arrested (not that he violently resisted, he just resisted non-violently with his bulk), but I don't see where the police had probable cause to arrest him in the first place. Maybe there was, and we just don't see it, but intuitively based on that video I doubt it. The act of getting arrested is punishment in and of itself, and if someone is getting arrested without probable cause they are a victim of police abuse. Tacking on a heavy resisting arrest charge to someone who is essentially innocent and without probable cause to start with seems like railroading. There's plenty the police could have done to diffuse the emotions of the situation before jumping on him with a choke hold. That said, the cops are human too. I'm also torn. However, many cops I've known have long lost perspective due to power. Give them more power? That's a tough call. Seems to me there's a very thin and blurry line between police abusing their power, and police not having the power to do their job. Perhaps if you're going to crank up the punishment for resisting arrest, you need to also crank up the punishment for arresting someone without probable cause as well as lay a framework for detecting such arrests when they happen. To the extent that in the situation in that video, the big guy could have told himself with confidence... "Yeah, arrest me... please.. cause you're going to be in deep shit for it tomorrow".
    Quote Originally Posted by whatloveihave View Post
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    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    I can't watch the video yet because I'm at work, but I think properly and professionally subduing a person resisting arrest is probably the first thing you learn in pig school. Not asking these guys to be martial arts experts but ffs get the ABCs right or dedicate yourself to directing traffic.
    Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent. - Mao

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    Member El D.'s Avatar
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    I don't agree with the whole stop and frisk policy in New York. It's blatant racial profiling.

    I also don't agree that making things more illegal would help prevent their occurance.

    I resisted arrest once and ran from a cop several times. It doesn't matter what the punishment is I don't think. In my experience that's not what goes through your head.

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    dormant jigglypuff's Avatar
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    he was saying he couldn't fucking breathe. he was on the ground and all he could do was reach out his hand and say that. the cops there are totally at fault.

    of course the cops shouldn't have been bothering him in the first place. people keep paying with their lives cuz cops don't know how to act like humans in situations where people normally need medical attention. or they're just idiots with power or something. oh and sometimes they're just plain murderers and they all have each other's backs when they kill.
    Last edited by jigglypuff; 07-24-2014 at 02:58 PM.

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    Persona Oblongata OrionzRevenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stigmatica View Post
    What exactly did that big guy get arrested for? From what I've read, he broke up a fight and had a history of illegally selling cigarettes. I agree that he would have likely been fine in the long run had he simply complied with being arrested (not that he violently resisted, he just resisted non-violently with his bulk), but I don't see where the police had probable cause to arrest him in the first place. Maybe there was, and we just don't see it, but intuitively based on that video I doubt it. The act of getting arrested is punishment in and of itself, and if someone is getting arrested without probable cause they are a victim of police abuse. Tacking on a heavy resisting arrest charge to someone who is essentially innocent and without probable cause to start with seems like railroading. There's plenty the police could have done to diffuse the emotions of the situation before jumping on him with a choke hold. That said, the cops are human too. I'm also torn. However, many cops I've known have long lost perspective due to power. Give them more power? That's a tough call. Seems to me there's a very thin and blurry line between police abusing their power, and police not having the power to do their job. Perhaps if you're going to crank up the punishment for resisting arrest, you need to also crank up the punishment for arresting someone without probable cause as well as lay a framework for detecting such arrests when they happen. To the extent that in the situation in that video, the big guy could have told himself with confidence... "Yeah, arrest me... please.. cause you're going to be in deep shit for it tomorrow".
    He was approached by the cops for again selling untaxed cigs. Who knows how this might have gone had he complied. When you have a big guy like that, then you might well expect that the cops would want to temp cuff you while they did a routine search. Or they may have felt they had the goods on'em and were gonna book him. He had been arrested by that same cop for the same thing, and despite the running video commentary by the freedom-fighter/photographer that it was al because he broke up a fight, if you listen to the big guys statements you learn as much.

    Too, having lived in an urban environment all my adult life, I can't help but suspect that the cops look upon his illegal cig dealing as a magnet for that sort of trouble.


    Quote Originally Posted by tele View Post
    he was saying he couldn't fucking breathe. he was on the ground and all he could do was reach out his hand and say that. the cops there are totally at fault.

    of course the cops shouldn't have been bothering him in the first place. people keep paying with their lives cuz cops don't know how to act like humans in situations where people normally need medical attention. or they're just idiots with power or something. oh and sometimes they're just plain murderers and they all have each other's backs when they kill.
    Like I said, there is NO safe way to subdue a person. This is exactly why we need to find a way to deter resisting behavior.

    Taking the lesser of possible evils, cops are taught to but their knee/elbow into the lower torso of a resistor once on the ground. Thus, you very often hear suspects in that position saying that they can't breathe. But also, cops are taught that if a suspect is constantly telling you he can't breathe... then he can.
    Creativity is the residue of time wasted. ~ Albert Einstein

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