Page 1 of 19 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 187

Thread: Israel/Palestine--the Song that Never Ends

  1. #1
    Minister of Love Roger Mexico's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    New World
    Posts
    3,238
    INTPx Award Winner

    Israel/Palestine--the Song that Never Ends

    Oy. I get a little fatigued with all this because it's so consistently depressing, but then I read about this proposal from the Israeli Finance Minister, which is kind of shockingly reasonable and lucid compared to what I'm used to hearing come out of either side in the conflict.

    The long and short of it is that he says the best thing is for the Israelis to court the Fatah wing of the PA, and try to get them back in control of Gaza, and it might help to achieve that if a bunch of other countries came up with a big foreign aid package specifically tied to the condition of Gaza and the West Bank being unified under the control of the official PA government again.

    http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2014-...stored-pa-rule

    What say ye, INTP's? Personally I'm bone tired of even listening to debates about which side has the moral high ground or who is justified in doing what, although I'm sure I'm inviting plenty of that by starting a thread on the topic.

    My own interest, though, is seeing what people would propose (or proposals by more expert parties they'd endorse) as far as actual progress toward solutions.

    (Beyond thinking that getting Gaza back under Fatah control is a relative no-brainer of a desirable goal to set, I'm personally inclined to think the whole situation has become exactly the sort of thing that a UN-type body of international mediators needs to step in on. You know, maybe--not that the UN has done a lot of good on the whole issue to date, obviously, but that's partly due to US vetoes and general stonewalling to maintain the ability to unilaterally commandeer the mediator role and privilege the US' own objectives in the area.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptah View Post
    No history, no exposition, no anecdote or argument changes the invariant: we are all human beings, and some humans are idiots.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Desolation Row
    Posts
    3,942
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mexico View Post
    What say ye, INTP's? Personally I'm bone tired of even listening to debates about which side has the moral high ground or who is justified in doing what, although I'm sure I'm inviting plenty of that by starting a thread on the topic.
    You know that's going to happen. I'm not going to take part, though. If it shows signs of becoming what you want to, I might. I can't even refer to the names of the areas in question without that being a damn argument.
    Last edited by msg_v2; 08-13-2014 at 01:49 AM.

  3. #3
    libertine librarian sandwitch's Avatar
    Type
    intp
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    flyover territory
    Posts
    1,356
    The idea that removing Hamas will end the conflict completely ignores the source of the conflict. If not Hamas, other resistence groups will rise. The article fails to mention that Hamas "seized control" through a democratic election. Situations in the West Bank and Gaza are quite different, and I do not expect Abbas's history of "leadership" to attract Gazan support.

    Another major problem for this plan is that it isn't an option for Israel to apply conditions to international aid- it is their occupation and restrictions that make Gaza dependent on aid. They are obligated to allow the aid to pass through unhindered, despite their apparent impunity.

    As those who are familiar with my background may expect, I have many opinions about this. I'm happy to provide sources for more information if there are any specific questions. I'm not able to deal with general questions because I can't possibly answer to the level that I'd consider satisfactory. Personally, I don't believe that any solution is sustainable unless it addresses the occupation and incorporates Palestinian self-determination into rebuilding.

    I saw Eran Efrati speak earlier this year, and I think I've appropriated some of his stories in other discussions on the forum. He's a former IDF soldier and now an activist. I really like his perspective and proposed solution, but I can't imagine Israeli society as it is today even considering it.

  4. #4
    Global Moderator Polemarch's Avatar
    Type
    ENTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    1,496
    I thought this was a brilliant article: http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-tra...the-hamas-war/

    The thesis was that both Israel and Palestine have simultaneously adopted strategies of perceived strength and perceived weakness on both sides. In other words, strength to deter and intimidate; weakness to incur sympathy and justify barbarism. The other contention of the author is that Hamas views the conflict as an anti-colonial struggle akin to Algeria; but that this model of resistance is flawed because it overlooks the fact that Israelis don't view themselves as colonial occupiers.

    Where I stand personally on this issue, is that I wish there were a way to incorporate Palestinians fully within Israeli society, in a single state that could live in peace. I realize how naive this is. But I don't envision a two-state solution as being even possible, because Palestinians fundamentally reject Israel's existence. Until that mentality changes, I see no way Israel can avoid total war to defend its existence.
    We didn't land on Plymouth Rock. Plymouth Rock landed on us.

  5. #5
    Persona Oblongata OrionzRevenge's Avatar
    Type
    INtP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Shambala Road
    Posts
    3,274


    I don't give any credence to the validity of the 1949 Armistice Line. As the Palestinians were full partners in the several Pan-Arab attempts at an offensive to erase Israel. Nor do I weep over displaced Palestinians. Because Israel managed to survive the 1948 war, in part, due to the fact that the IDF was reinforced by thousands of Jews having just prior been displaced and exiled from their homes throughout the Arab world. (Something you never seem to hear news stories about).

    Given this history of Arab Nations mobilizing armies on the Jordanian Border and invading from the east, It really should be no surprise that most of the recent settlements that have spurred contention have been built north of Jericho... IF you entertain the possibility that Israel is looking towards an ultimate goal of a two-state solution.

    Israel's security, given the unrelenting lack of recognition from Palestine (As Polemarch alluded to), dictates that Palestine not share a border with Jordan.

    If I had a magic wand, I would carve a two-state solution by making a Palestinian corridor between Gaza & Hebron, remove the settlements around Hebron, and remove the green around Jericho. Otherwise, leave things as is.
    Creativity is the residue of time wasted. ~ Albert Einstein

  6. #6
    Banned
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Desolation Row
    Posts
    3,942
    I don't think it can be solved, really. Too many people dead set on revenge and all-or-nothing solutions.

    To be somewhat more hopeful, despite the title:



    http://www.gallup.com/poll/161456/is...t-hopeful.aspx

    This is old, and who knows what polls would read now.... but it kind of turns conventional wisdom on its head. I found the results a little surprising.

  7. #7
    Member Bartender's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Western New York - USA
    Posts
    716
    The only solution to the Arab/Israeli conflict is to remove israel from the middle east. They have no more claim to the region than anyone else (Inb4 muh holy land,choosen people,master race) they have constantly been pushing the inhabitants out of homes and have killed countless palestinians. Just so the jews can have a racially pure Jewish state, if any other developed country in the world decided to do the things the israelis do they would be condemed by the world as a whole. Which israel is getting close to that point as of now with only the US as a faithful ally left. They have been denounced by the british and many other european countries.

    At the end of the day the only solution is to disolve israel as a state and have a combined palestinian state, not one seperated on racial grounds which is totally barbaric and is condemed everywhere else.

  8. #8
    Global Moderator Polemarch's Avatar
    Type
    ENTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    1,496
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartender View Post
    The only solution to the Arab/Israeli conflict is to remove israel from the middle east.
    At the end of the day the only solution is to disolve israel as a state and have a combined palestinian state, not one seperated on racial grounds which is totally barbaric and is condemed everywhere else.
    Based on what? How did you arrive at this only/final solution?
    We didn't land on Plymouth Rock. Plymouth Rock landed on us.

  9. #9
    Member Bartender's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Western New York - USA
    Posts
    716
    Quote Originally Posted by Polemarch View Post
    Based on what? How did you arrive at this only/final solution?
    Based on the idea that you have a state that views themselves as a master race and is constantly expanding and is surrounded by hostile states who hate them more than anything in the world. I would say getting along is pretty far fetched. The jews had no need for a separate state nor was it justly taken. Israel is responsible and the target for pretty much all the intense hatred in the middle east. They have bombed every country around them multiple times. They assassinate the leaders of these countries and anyone who poses a threat to them. They are a rogue state with nukes and that is a very dangerous thing.

  10. #10
    Member Thoth's Avatar
    Type
    INFP
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    AHJ 2006
    Posts
    716
    Where competing theocracies exist, you will never have peace. You cannot solve situations that always fall to fundamentally unprovable and irrational concepts. Even if the two where brought into a single state, they would continue to identify themselves ethnically by religion before all else. If you want peace, boundaries defined by religious belief would need to be eliminated and people would need to begin to identify themselves in mutually geographic terms.

Similar Threads

  1. Game of Thrones (A Song of Ice and Fire)
    By Mxx in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 278
    Last Post: 06-02-2015, 05:14 PM
  2. Do the ends justify the means?
    By Randall in forum Philosophy & Spirituality
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 03-26-2014, 08:46 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •