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Thread: Things teachers are doing wrong

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    Things teachers are doing wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwitch View Post
    We have a lot of teachers on the forum, and sometimes I wonder how y'all manage.
    Preparing lesson plans, constant assessments, the demands of subpar students, administration complications, etc&etc.
    At what point did you feel effective in your role as a teacher?
    How have your MBTI personality traits helped you teach?
    Would you recommend your path to past-you?
    I've come to detest the term `teacher' as suggested by these questions.
    When I tutor, teach, goad, bestow or otherwise interact with the intention of one-or-more others LEARNING something of interest or potential value I don't do so with `teacher' as a `role' or with a `lesson plan'.
    I've Tech Assisted a college CAD class, taught Advanced BASIC for a computer store, taught an evening class at a community college. -- all formally TAUGHT under the auspices of a sanctioning institution.
    I've done lots of ad_hoc tutoring, demonstrating, and informal `teaching' -- whatever the hell this verb `teach' means.
    I detest formal education with it's fixed roles of teacher/superior and student/inferior.
    Life IS for learning.
    Where the hell `teaching' enters into the process of LEARNING seems pretty specious, gratuitous, and quite often pretentious.

    Though to not lose my `teaching' mojo when at my favorite stream sculpting site I `teach' fish to swim, birds to fly, and dogs how to chase stones which I skip before them.
    It's really important to take credit for what learners learn and doers do ... absolutely essential for a `teacher'.
    To allow learners to get credit for what they learn in a self-directed, self-paced way is a threat to every teacher's union on the planet ... and every teacher union member professionally obligated to play the role of `teacher'.

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    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gps View Post
    It's really important to take credit for what learners learn and doers do ... absolutely essential for a `teacher'.
    To allow learners to get credit for what they learn in a self-directed, self-paced way is a threat to every teacher's union on the planet ... and every teacher union member professionally obligated to play the role of `teacher'.
    Not only should they take credit for students' learning, they should take credit for baby-sitting and playing referee to a roomful of people during the entire day.

    I get what you're trying to say about superior/inferior roles, and I'd be the first to support greater autonomy for kids in the classroom (I kinda like the fact I was born when "Another Brick in The Wall" was topping the charts), but as far as unions are concerned, teaching methods and lesson plans inevitably take the eternal backseat - at least in my country - before the problem of wages. The reason is very simple: teachers are some of the most scandalously and consistently underpaid professionals out there. Especially considering the huge responsibilities of influencing young minds while dealing with illness-inducing stress levels (cancer rates are really fucking high among teachers, and I don't know about the psychological illnesses but I'd speculate that you probably can't get past secondary school without encountering a solid 20% rate of bonafide crazies at the helm of your classes). These people who have "more vacations than anybody" also have more jobs, responsibilities and stress than anybody, and they are thanked for it by being allowed to live just above the poverty line. So, what were you saying about the selfish arrogance of teachers' unions again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Heh. We've been here years now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    I get what you're trying to say about superior/inferior roles,

    ...

    So, what were you saying about the selfish arrogance of teachers' unions again?
    Did I cast teacher's unions as selfish and arrogant?
    Let me balance out my derision for this part of the corrupt duopoly with the assholes in the Human Resources departments of the other duopolistic part which ONLY hire `graduates' of institutions as they shun autodidacts they won't even test for competence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    ... and I'd be the first to support greater autonomy for kids in the classroom
    Nope, you didn't `get it'.
    The role of `teacher' ONLY makes sense in the corrupt context of CLASSROOM.
    {aside: Having taught English for 7 years I can see you've mastered the oxymorn. As if prisoners could experience AUTONOMY of any sort while emprisioned?}
    That individuals can LEARN in and outside of classrooms begs the question that classrooms and teachers are both somehow requisite for learning to take place.
    If The State wants it's citizens to LEARN then it should pay the citizens directly.

    INTPs as life-long learners should thrive in such a system where they are rewarded directly and the FUCKING DUFFERS and functionaries AKA `teachers' -- OOOOPS, many of them having run the gauntlet, transition from inferiors/subordinates/prisoners to superiors/masters/guards/baby_sitters -- can split the difference between becoming playing the new roles of up-and-up day care providers and tutors for those earning enough money through GOOD GRADES.
    Last edited by gps; 07-16-2014 at 04:34 PM.

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    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gps View Post
    Did I cast teacher's unions as selfish and arrogant?
    Let me balance out my derision for this part of the corrupt duopoly with the the assholes in the Human Resources departments of the other duopolistic part which ONLY hire `graduates' or institutions as they shun autodidacts they won't even test for competence.
    Once again, I'm all for being an autodidact to a healthy extent, but how do you test an autodidact for competence as a teacher? I can't really blame the system for not taking on "autodidacts" as teachers, it's not like we're talking about programmers here.

    Nope, you didn't `get it'.
    The role of `teacher' ONLY makes sense in the corrupt context of CLASSROOM.
    {aside: Having taught English for 7 years I can see you've mastered the oxymorn. As if prisoners could experience AUTONOMY of any sort while emprisioned?}
    That individuals can LEARN in and outside of classrooms begs the question that classrooms and teachers are both somehow requisite for learning to take place.
    If The State wants it's citizens to LEARN then it should pay the citizens directly.


    I taught adult classes in private institutions and I certainly wasn't keeping any them as prisoners (although maybe some of them would have liked that xD). I'm the only female in my family that hasn't taught kids in the public school system, actually. So I'm basing myself on the second-hand experience of knowing a lot of teachers who have worked in that system. The only time I taught kids was when I was passing by a school to pick up some books for a teenagers' course and they begged me to teach these little kids (improvisation) because the teacher was sick. Scared the living shit out of me, it seemed like all they wanted to do was slide off their chairs, run around or fight. I just taught them a song and called it a day.

    I have no idea what you're proposing, though, besides eliminating the classroom (which can begin to sound interesting only with an alternative proposal) and paying students to learn (which is making me go wtf right now).
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Heh. We've been here years now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    Once again, I'm all for being an autodidact to a healthy extent, but how do you test an autodidact for competence as a teacher?
    I can't really blame the system for not taking on "autodidacts" as teachers
    It seems you're mixing up the roles played by the corresponding parts of the duopoly.
    I'm not advocating that autodidacts BECOME `teachers'; I'm arguing that the systemic use of `graduation' -- bestowed by an institution -- as some trumps-all-self-education-by-autodidacts dovetails with the hiring requirements by institutions/businesses which ONLY hire `graduates'.
    Autodidacts -- of which INTPs are temperamentally well-equipped to enact -- are systemically SCREWED by this duopolistic malpractice.
    That employers don't empirically test ALL candidates -- autodidacts and `graduates' alike -- entails something akin to `guilty until proven innocent'.
    Non-graduate autodidacts are treated as if ignorant and un(der)educated until proven otherwise ... and there is no UNcorrupt means of proving otherwise as there is no testing performed on a fair and equal basis.


    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    I taught adult classes in private institutions and I certainly wasn't keeping any them as prisoners (although maybe some of them would have liked that xD).
    I'm the only female in my family that hasn't taught kids in the public school system, actually.
    So I'm basing myself on the second-hand experience of knowing a lot of teachers who have worked in that system.
    The only time I taught kids was when I was passing by a school to pick up some books for a teenagers' course and they begged me to teach these little kids (improvisation) because the teacher was sick.
    Scared the living shit out of me, it seemed like all they wanted to do was slide off their chairs, run around or fight.
    I just taught them a song and called it a day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    I have no idea what you're proposing, though, besides eliminating the classroom (which can begin to sound interesting only with an alternative proposal) and paying students to learn (which is making me go wtf right now).
    I'm proposing prorating remuneration with performance; An A gets them the most money, a B something less than an A, a C lower pay than a B, etc.
    If they get/earn something less than a D, F, or such then either they obtain funding from parents to pay for tutors OR they get the day care option where they are held captive all day in a class_room-cum-day_care_prison_camp.
    Those with good enough grades could study in any place they damn well pleased: public library, on the web, at home, ANYWHERE.
    Those with good grades should NOT be incarcerated/imprisoned with fuck ups and `behavior problem' kids only to have THEIR influence on the class average used to aggrandize the `teachers'/prison_guards and institution while offsetting the deleterious effects on the `class average' of those who distract them from their studies.

    If the Introverted iNtuitives were allowed to `test out' of a classroom setting the corruption of the system would be come apparent.
    The introverted iNtuitives improve the class average while being subjected to the Sensate sociopolitical institutionalized bullshit that actually detracts from their education.
    I'd want every INxx to have the option for self-study and to be rewarded by paycheck for what THEY do ... rather than the TEACHER getting the pay check for the WORK that the INxx does.

    I'm happy with state-sponsored day care; I just want those self-disciplined enough, self-directed enough to Learn/perform to published specifications to NOT be imprisoned with warm bodies playing Centrifugal Bumble Puppy in the name of `socialization' as some tax-funded duffer collects a pay check and accrues retirement benefits.
    I put up with that bullshit k thru 12 for 13 long years ... SJ traditionalist ASSHOLE `teachers' and administrators in grade school held in the same holding pens with ESxx types as per collective punishment outlawed by the Geneva convention.
    I'd like any kid LIKE I WAS to have an out, a option which would reward GOOD BEHAVIOR with options which allow them out of the experiential PUNISHMENT of having to put up with functionary `superiors' and fucked-up would-be `peers' in the form of also-institutionalized classmates.
    Last edited by gps; 07-13-2014 at 03:09 PM.

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    Minister of Love Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gps View Post
    employers don't empirically test ALL candidates -- autodidacts and `graduates' alike -- entails something akin to `guilty until proven innocent'.
    Non-graduate autodidacts are treated as if ignorant and un(der)educated until proven otherwise
    Use all the scare quotes you want--it's still basically just you who doesn't realize that these words have commonly established meanings and describe objective realities with implications for rational decision making.

    The graduates have already been tested. That's how they became graduates--in order to graduate from just about any school, you have to take lots and lots of tests and earn passing scores on them. There really isn't anything an employer can do to assess a person's skills prior to actually employing them which is going to be any more "empirical" than the assessments a school uses.

    So testing the graduates would be redundant--they've already spent years taking hundreds of tests. Giving them one more test isn't likely to tell you very much that you can't just infer from the fact that they passed enough tests to earn a degree. Stipulating that candidates earn a degree before they apply is effectively just a way of outsourcing the logistics of administering tests to an outside agency.

    The "autodidacts" (see, I can use the scare quotes too--believe me, I hear this one from underperforming students all the time) have not taken the tests that the graduates have taken, so if anything it would be up to the employer to decide whether they want to do the extra work of administering tests similar to the ones the graduates have already passed. This might be more fair in some ideal-world sense, but given the practical considerations alone I can easily understand why a lot of employers wouldn't want to bother with it.

    Gee, wouldn't it be nice if every large institution custom-tailored every single thing it did to perfectly conform to the personal preferences of every single individual it had to deal with? I mean, why doesn't my bank employ tellers who can talk to me in the language I'm best at speaking? Don't they reallize there are people in the world who don't speak Spanish? GAWD, it's not fair!

    I'm not aware of any scientifically verified association between Myers-Briggs types and academic performance (largely because Myers-Briggs types aren't a scientifically verified thing to begin with), and the MBTI is certainly not an intelligence test in any case. If we broadly define personality traits like "introversion" I don't see a reason to think there's any association between them and lower grades. (Low grades being the main thing that will usually stop a person from getting a degree at any school they go to.)

    "Introverted intuitive" pretty much means the same thing as "nerd", and an inability to get good grades isn't exactly an attribute most people commonly associate with being nerdy. In my observation, introverted kids generally do just as well as any other students, if not somewhat better. (The introverts are generally not the ones with problems like compulsively chattering with their classmates instead of paying attention, going to parties instead of doing their homework, and that sort of thing.)

    So whatever it was that caused you to have problems with your teachers or do poorly in your classes, it most likely wasn't your MBTI type. I don't think anyone actually enjoys high school. I certainly didn't, but it wasn't an insurmountable obstacle. I'm "introverted intuitive" as all hell, and if anything my main gripe about school was that it was way too easy. I could generally pull down A's with little or nothing in the way of real effort, and the only classes I ever got poor grades in were the ones where I got an attitude about something or other and decided to take a pointless stand by not doing any work. (Which, as was frequently pointed out to me--not that I listened because this is how teenage rebellion works--wasn't an especially intelligent decision because it didn't harm "the system" one bit while basically giving myself more problems to deal with.)

    A tendency to have trouble compromising when you're working in an institutional setting where things won't always work the way you would personally like them to work can certainly interfere with your school performance (it interfered with mine, to an extent, because I had that problem a lot as a kid), irrespective of your intelligence or technical acumen in any particular area.

    But, then again, that same problem can interfere with your job performance in an employment setting, too, so that might tell you something about employers who might not have a lot of fucks to spare for the applicant who comes in explaining that they never got a degree due to their teachers being ASSHOLES who THOUGHT THEY WERE LIKE SOOOOO SMART but DID EVERYTHING WRONG.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptah View Post
    No history, no exposition, no anecdote or argument changes the invariant: we are all human beings, and some humans are idiots.

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    I teach for a living. The system is flawed and I must work within it. I do the best I can. Occasionally I tilt at windmills, but as the years go by, I have less energy for that. If I give 5 minutes of personalized feedback per student per week, that alone is 20 hours a week ... as in not counting the time spent in front of a classroom, doing routine grading, record keeping, lesson planning, writing letters of recommendation, going to meetings, doing assessments, etc. And that's with a part time teaching load and for a part time paycheck. In order to save time I've implemented a system for writing assignments where if you pass a grade threshold on the first assignment, you don't have to do any more of them and I can concentrate on students who need me (you keep doing more until you show me you know how, then you stop) because there aren't enough hours in a day for me to tell my students all the things they need to hear from me about the deficiencies in the work they are turning in. This idea that teachers are being paid for the work students are doing themselves is ludicrous. I stay up late at night writing much needed feedback that will probably be ignored and I want to throw up when I convert my salary into an hourly wage. Teachers being paid for the work the students are doing....as fucking if. The student you are talking about who doesn't need me...well I wish there were more of them. I'm god damn drowning in the needs of my students.

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    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gps View Post
    Non-graduate autodidacts are treated as if ignorant and un(der)educated until proven otherwise ... and there is no UNcorrupt means of proving otherwise as there is no testing performed on a fair and equal basis.
    I'm proposing prorating remuneration with performance; An A gets them the most money, a B something less than an A, a C lower pay than a B, etc.
    If they get/earn something less than a D, F, or such then either they obtain funding from parents to pay for tutors OR they get the day care option where they are held captive all day in a class_room-cum-day_care_prison_camp.
    How on earth can you say in one breath that the system is "corrupt" for not providing autodidacts with equal opportunities, and then propose that students be rewarded with MONEY for their grades? Aside from the financial impossibility of doing such a thing (dunno who'd wanna get behind that), what kind of values do you hope to instill with such a system? Non-corrupt ones?

    Not to mention, you object to the unfairness of the system but your entire solution hinges on what is perhaps the most debateable, least democratic element in it - grading. This is something that doesn't help students study (test-based studying is nefarious, IMO), it encourages pointless competition and comparisons between peers, it judges everyone by a single arbitrary standard, ignoring individualities, and often doesn't even simulate the application of knowledge in the real world. Nobody is going to ask you to tick off multiple choice boxes or answer idiot trivia when faced with real world problem-solving. It is often up to the teachers that you (for some reason) despise to generate creative scenarios and tasks that contemplate real life challenges.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Heh. We've been here years now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    How on earth can you say in one breath that the system is "corrupt" for not providing autodidacts with equal opportunities, and then propose that students be rewarded with MONEY for their grades?

    Aside from the financial impossibility of doing such a thing
    Did you miss the part where the financial possibility arises from paying the STUDENTS rather than those presently payed as `teachers'?
    Former `teachers' then can be hired as `tutors' by their NEW clients.
    No new financial outlays, just a redistribution of wealth.
    Rather than the `teachers' prostituting their talents for `The state' directly they start working for the `students' as they directly prostitute their talents for `The State'.
    The issue of who is working for whom is at issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    (dunno who'd wanna get behind that), what kind of values do you hope to instill with such a system?
    The same values as promoted in any system manifesting innocent until proven guilty.
    That autodidacts -- remunerated by The State for `good grades' or not -- would be tested by employers on equal footing with `graduates' would end the un(der)educated until proven educated/innocent status_quo corruption which has been in place for generations in virtually all Western countries.

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    Minister of Love Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gps View Post
    Did you miss the part where the financial possibility arises from paying the STUDENTS rather than those presently payed as `teachers'?
    Former `teachers' then can be hired as `tutors' by their NEW clients.
    No new financial outlays, just a redistribution of wealth.
    Rather than the `teachers' prostituting their talents for `The state' directly they start working for the `students' as they directly prostitute their talents for `The State'.
    The issue of who is working for whom is at issue.
    Wait, who is doing the 'grading'? 'The' teachers? The students 'get' paid by the government 'based' on their grades, and the teachers get 'paid' to grade 'the' work of the students 'who' pay them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptah View Post
    No history, no exposition, no anecdote or argument changes the invariant: we are all human beings, and some humans are idiots.

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