Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 49

Thread: The Ethics of Ownership

  1. #1
    Senior Member Makers!*'s Avatar
    Type
    XXXX
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Blackfeet Country
    Posts
    1,499

    The Ethics of Ownership

    Here I specifically refer to very large homes.

    Let’s start on the premise that there is a finite amount of resources— a finite amount of copper, lumber, steel, and everything else stripped from the land that can go into suburban castles and behemoth mega mansions, some of which, are only used as vacation homes. Now, consider that a hundred people born into dire economic circumstances the world-over could comfortably house themselves should those materials be dispersed, and often, these people are the ones most vulnerable to the economic ebbs and military flows the owners in the mansions create.

    Consider too, that heating a large home requires an excessive amount of C02, and that C02 driven global warming is causing famines, droughts, and other atypical weather events disproportionately affecting the poor, who heat their own abodes at fraction of the cost.

    And finally consider, what fills these rich homes? To which I answer, goods produced in factories with below standard safety requirements and above standard work expectations, populated by those who can’t even afford the products they make. We are all complicit in wage-slavery, but some, I would argue, are substantially more than others.

    My question, then, is it right (ethically) to heedlessly pursue capital gains with the purpose of building a large estate when it comes at the expense of so many others? And if yes, on what grounds?
    Last edited by Makers!*; 01-28-2015 at 01:45 PM.

  2. #2
    a cantori Perdix's Avatar
    Type
    INTj
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    the deep end
    Posts
    2,436
    While I see what you're saying, this argument comes down to the amount you are willing to restrict personal freedom. I vote for more personal freedom, but less equality.

  3. #3
    Anthropos mhc's Avatar
    Type
    iNtP
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    545
    Quote Originally Posted by Makers!* View Post
    My question, then, is it right (ethically) to heedlessly pursue capital gains with the purpose of building a large estate when it comes at the expense of so many others? And if yes, on what grounds?
    Just to throw another perspective into the mix here, I would like to offer another way of looking at this.

    In most western style cultures or economies where this 'perceived over and unsustainable consumption' takes place, consuming IS the fundamental principle which keeps the economy and culture sustained. Of course if some can 'consume' more or more expensively than others, it could also be seen that they are accepting the confinements or methodology of THAT culture or economy more so than others. With this in mind, trying to convince someone that they are 'consuming unsustainable' is akin to telling them that the thing that they are doing well at, which also makes up part of their LEARNED basis for society and how to be a part of it, is fundamentally wrong. Now, Im not disagreeing that a lot of consuming is unsustainable, but while a man in some distant country continues to pilferage at his own resources unsustainably, to sell to western consumers - so that he to can become apart of what the shiny billboards tell him his good, the problem will continue until a crises equalises the situation. Before you say that the man that goes and over fishes his local river for $2 a month has been hard pressed to do so, he is also blatantly ignoring the fact that on some level, he knows it is unsustainable to do so. And rather than laying blame to the people that are doing well at what has been established for them as a means to live and participate in society, maybe it would be better to look at people who can actually change a system which encourages consumption for the sake of consumption to sustain itself. A system which, on what ever level you want to look at, we all contribute to simply by going to work, paying taxes and buying our necessary goods. Granted, I may not need that new computer every 6 months, or what ever else others might seem unnecessary, but if i have the means, and whatever it is has already been produced, who's to say i shouldn't be able to buy whatever i want to, with money that i have already earned?
    Just look at the blue sky

  4. #4
    Limber Member floid's Avatar
    Type
    IXXP
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Tierra del Encanto
    Posts
    286
    Quote Originally Posted by Makers!* View Post
    My question, then, is it right (ethically) to heedlessly pursue capital gains with the purpose of building a large estate when it comes at the expense of so many others? And if yes, on what grounds?
    Not at all ethical.

    But then what can one expect when most laws are made by a couple of Kochs with a Boehner held by a committe of Kochsuckers?
    Society is like a stew. If you don’t stir it up every once in a while then a layer of scum floats to the top.
    -- Edward Abbey

  5. #5
    Senior Member Makers!*'s Avatar
    Type
    XXXX
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Blackfeet Country
    Posts
    1,499
    Quote Originally Posted by mhc View Post
    Just to throw another perspective into the mix here, I would like to offer another way of looking at this.

    In most western style cultures or economies where this 'perceived over and unsustainable consumption' takes place, consuming IS the fundamental principle which keeps the economy and culture sustained. Of course if some can 'consume' more or more expensively than others, it could also be seen that they are accepting the confinements or methodology of THAT culture or economy more so than others. With this in mind, trying to convince someone that they are 'consuming unsustainable' is akin to telling them that the thing that they are doing well at, which also makes up part of their LEARNED basis for society and how to be a part of it, is fundamentally wrong. Now, Im not disagreeing that a lot of consuming is unsustainable, but while a man in some distant country continues to pilferage at his own resources unsustainably, to sell to western consumers - so that he to can become apart of what the shiny billboards tell him his good, the problem will continue until a crises equalises the situation. Before you say that the man that goes and over fishes his local river for $2 a month has been hard pressed to do so, he is also blatantly ignoring the fact that on some level, he knows it is unsustainable to do so. And rather than laying blame to the people that are doing well at what has been established for them as a means to live and participate in society, maybe it would be better to look at people who can actually change a system which encourages consumption for the sake of consumption to sustain itself. A system which, on what ever level you want to look at, we all contribute to simply by going to work, paying taxes and buying our necessary goods. Granted, I may not need that new computer every 6 months, or what ever else others might seem unnecessary, but if i have the means, and whatever it is has already been produced, who's to say i shouldn't be able to buy whatever i want to, with money that i have already earned?
    You know what, I really don’t think you should buy a new laptop, no matter how hard you think you’ve worked to own one. You should buy it used or go to the library. And it really bugs me that I’m getting sales pitches to switch to these technologies in my classes and the whole damn school is sponsored by Apple, aka the south pre 1864. This is how I know that freeing the slaves was not a factor for fighting the civil war, that it was all economically motivated, because lets face it. Noone. Gives. A. Fuck. Even now, in our “civilized age” that our crap is produced in factories with nets under the windows so the workers don’t jump to their death.

    Meanwhile, you have these idiots parading around slandering religions (or any “Other”,) whose contemporary atrocities are relatively tame compared to the widespread degradation hedonism in the west has wrought upon the world, from the massacre of Native Americans to driving around, everyday, in their life-sized hot wheels cars dumping heat absorbing gases into the air. This behavior is bullshit. And our entire society is built around allowing, indeed, encouraging it through the media, television, advertising, movies, everything.

  6. #6
    Global Moderator Polemarch's Avatar
    Type
    ENTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    1,496
    I'm not really in favor of people telling other people what they "should" be allowed to have.

    In a state of nature, the strongest dominate the weakest and they have whatever the fuck they want. No private property, no law, just violence. What kind of fairy tale mentality must one possess to believe that the absence of the concept of ownership would somehow lead to equity?
    We didn't land on Plymouth Rock. Plymouth Rock landed on us.

  7. #7
    Anthropos mhc's Avatar
    Type
    iNtP
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    545
    Quote Originally Posted by Makers!* View Post
    You know what, I really don’t think you should buy a new laptop, no matter how hard you think you’ve worked to own one. You should buy it used or go to the library. And it really bugs me that I’m getting sales pitches to switch to these technologies in my classes and the whole damn school is sponsored by Apple, aka the south pre 1864. This is how I know that freeing the slaves was not a factor for fighting the civil war, that it was all economically motivated, because lets face it. Noone. Gives. A. Fuck. Even now, in our “civilized age” that our crap is produced in factories with nets under the windows so the workers don’t jump to their death.

    Meanwhile, you have these idiots parading around slandering religions (or any “Other”,) whose contemporary atrocities are relatively tame compared to the widespread degradation hedonism in the west has wrought upon the world, from the massacre of Native Americans to driving around, everyday, in their life-sized hot wheels cars dumping heat absorbing gases into the air. This behavior is bullshit. And our entire society is built around allowing, indeed, encouraging it through the media, television, advertising, movies, everything.
    It is easy to overlook the fact that owning something that is or may be needed, and locking it away in a shed, and paying taxes to support police officers to help enforce that ownership, is intrinsically human nature. The feeling or idea that 'everyone needs one of everything' can also be seen as a symptom, rather than a problem in itself. For example, communities that have a strong sense of community spirit may for example set up ventures worked upon by many people and families, which when needed, can borrow things on an as needed bases. similarly they might also set up things such as car pooling to save money and time, but which also reduces consumption of fuel and cars and therefor emissions.

    When that sense of community spirit, or a sense of trust is absent, people feel divided and start to unintentionally work against one another, leading to - you guessed it - relying on themselves for everything that they need. Now, there are many things which can serve to divide people amongst themselves such as wealth, race and religion. however within todays society, so much stigma has been built up around viewing these more historically dominant dividing notions, they have in some ways been overtaken in terms of influence by more seemingly trivial, egotistical ideas, which may not have as much power to influence to the same extant, but are capable of influencing a larger proportion of people.

    If you were to ask me my opinion how a system such as consumerism has been able to progress to such an extant that it influences people to commit atrocities on man and nature, I would say because of human nature, that is, too many people are too short sighted and blinded by things such as greed and jealousy to see that the system itself is flawed, not the neighbour who lives in a mansion and drives a Ferrari.

    In addition

    Of course if you ask the neighbour driving the Ferrari his opinion, more than likely he's not going to be too concerned, after all he's living a life of luxury. the future generations of that person however, might have a different opinion if the system crashes and basic human necessities become a luxury, gained by blood, sweat and tears. My suggestion, if you want to change the system before waiting for it to collapse upon future generations is, rather than poking fingers at people who've found their good at making a system work, channel that energy into making a new system, which people can follow with the same level of efficiency and determination, and one that is sustainable and fair. alternatively, focus on ways of producing things sustainably, which currently are not. Or perhaps lead by example, by starting up some organisation that can purchase seldom used things and borrow them out amongst its members..
    Last edited by mhc; 01-28-2015 at 06:14 AM.
    Just look at the blue sky

  8. #8
    Senior Member Makers!*'s Avatar
    Type
    XXXX
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Blackfeet Country
    Posts
    1,499
    Quote Originally Posted by Polemarch View Post
    I'm not really in favor of people telling other people what they "should" be allowed to have.

    In a state of nature, the strongest dominate the weakest and they have whatever the fuck they want. No private property, no law, just violence. What kind of fairy tale mentality must one possess to believe that the absence of the concept of ownership would somehow lead to equity?
    What kind of mentality must one possess to throw a tantrum, in a check out line, when they’re told, “no you can’t have that candy?” A childs. The impulsiveness not to consider our actions or their effects certainly seems to follow us, doesn’t it? Thank God, we develop the ability to reason. And it’s funny you mention fairy-tales, because those were actually designed to serve a purpose, that is, to instill morals at an early age. Although, I’ve noticed the trend now is to simply placate children with devices or baseless Disney films that have as much as stake in maintaining the status quo as anything. Maybe, the “strong,” as you say—those guys who do nothing more than manipulate numbers or were born into wealth—could have had a few more fairy tales read to them, a few good ones. Like from Oscar Wilde. Now, he was a good socialist.
    Last edited by Makers!*; 01-28-2015 at 01:57 PM.

  9. #9
    a cantori Perdix's Avatar
    Type
    INTj
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    the deep end
    Posts
    2,436
    Quote Originally Posted by Makers!* View Post
    What kind of mentality must one possess to throw a tantrum, in a check out line, when they’re told, “no you can’t have that candy?” A childs. The impulsiveness not to consider our actions or their effects certainly seems to follow us, doesn’t it? Thank God, we develop the ability to reason. And it’s funny you mention fairy-tales, because those were actually designed to serve a purpose, that is, to instill morals at an early age. Although, I’ve noticed the trend now is to simply placate children with devices, or baseless Disney films that have as much as stake in maintaining the status quo as anything. Maybe, the “strong,” as you say—those guys who do nothing more than manipulate numbers, or were born into wealth—could have had a few more fairy tales read to them, a few good ones. Like from Oscar Wilde. Now, he was a good socialist.
    You sound stressed out man.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Makers!*'s Avatar
    Type
    XXXX
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Blackfeet Country
    Posts
    1,499
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    You sound stressed out man.
    I'm actually quite entertained.

Similar Threads

  1. Mafia games, ethics etc.
    By Blorg in forum Psychology & Sociology
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-05-2015, 02:45 AM
  2. the illusion of ownership
    By mhc in forum Philosophy & Spirituality
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-25-2014, 10:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •