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Thread: "Do as I say, not as I do" WTF?!

  1. #11
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Just because someone is a hypocrite, doesn't mean they're wrong.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  2. #12
    Amen P-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Je suis très curieux View Post
    Why?
    I mean, look at bees. Plenty of societies in the animal kingdom have assigned roles for different members of the society. I.e. It may be best for society if 10% of the population obeys one set of rules and 90% obeys another.

    I'm just keeping an open mind about it. It's just a possibility.
    Violence is never the right answer, unless used against heathens and monsters.

  3. #13
    I think unintentional, non-manipulative hypocrisy is an extremely common if not universal byproduct of the modular structure of the human mind.

    If you personally suffer from a certain behaviour or tendency in somebody else, you naturally begin to consciously or subconsciously dislike that trait and whatever you associate with it. You can also internalise these valuations through the things you are taught, the opinions you hear and the instances you observe. All it takes sometimes is to overhear a random criticism, and the wish to avoid criticism yourself makes you adjust your values to prevent being/doing whatever it was that was being bitched about.

    However, since such a small portion of our psyche is left up to our conscious mind to handle, we can easily develop beliefs regarding certain behaviours that we consciously spout to others and can genuinely believe in, but then unintentionally contradict since the underlying motivation for that behaviour hasn't been picked up on.

    Instincts are the most compelling when we are unaware of them, since actively resisting them requires awareness. One very fundamental instinct humans have is to protect their own sense of self-worth, or ego. It is far less psychologically stressful to be in denial about contradicting some of your morals, and avoids all that pesky cognitive dissonance that would result from acknowledging that you are filled with impulses and desires that are seen as shitty by the value system you've internalised.

    And let's face it, most moral systems exist specifically to curb some of the strongest natural instincts that don't really gel with civilised society or have (relatively) recently discovered risks. Why do you think most religions are so strict regarding sexuality? Because the urge to reproduce is powerful and it doesn't give a shit about syphilis, child support or consent. Even stronger conditioning and incentives are needed to keep it under control, such as using shame, scorn, exile, and other attacks on the ego, or just (the threat of) punishment. Yet these don't eradicate the desire, they only subdue it, which can then necessitate the use of defense mechanisms like hypocrisy, denial, projection or reaction formation to deal with the resulting internal contradictions.
    Last edited by Kunstvolles Schwein; 12-10-2015 at 02:37 AM. Reason: THC related incoherence

  4. #14
    Senior Member Starjots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstvolles Schwein View Post
    I think unintentional, non-manipulative hypocrisy is an extremely common if not universal byproduct of the modular structure of the human mind.

    <snip>

    Yet these don't eradicate the desire, they only subdue it, which can then necessitate the use of defense mechanisms like hypocrisy, denial, projection or reaction formation to deal with the resulting internal contradictions.
    Makes sense for garden variety hypocrisy and reminds me of the term 'sacrament.' In Catholicism, a sacrament is an outward sign of inward grace. Here, hypocrisy is an outward sign of internal contradictions.

  5. #15
    Member Viktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robcore View Post
    Context is important. If an addict told me, in the midst of his struggle, not to do drugs, I wouldn't really consider him a hypocrite. It's contexts like that where the "do as I say, not as I do" makes sense to me.
    Agreed. Somebody trying to help you benefit from their experience or mistakes can be genuine, even if they are encouraging you to do something they aren't following.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mexico View Post
    Something I recall reading by this guy once pretty much advanced the argument that anyone who thinks they're actually living by any moral code they overtly espouse is engaging in self-delusion.
    Definitely agree. I take it a step further with the belief that the farther one progresses into trying to judge the actions of others, the more one becomes oblivious to one's own shortcomings.


    Quote Originally Posted by P-O View Post
    I mean, look at bees. Plenty of societies in the animal kingdom have assigned roles for different members of the society. I.e. It may be best for society if 10% of the population obeys one set of rules and 90% obeys another.
    I've even seen this in marriage. Say that my wife is more sensitive to criticism than I am. Then I should not return any criticism she makes with one of equal (or greater) severity/tone/wording. Almost akin to me punching her as hard as she punches me if we are playing, given that she is smaller, with less muscle mass and bone structure. This may seem unfair on the surface, but is ultimately equitable. I do believe in some absolutes, but there are plenty of situations where 100% uniformity just isn't possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstvolles Schwein View Post
    I think unintentional, non-manipulative hypocrisy is an extremely common if not universal byproduct of the modular structure of the human mind.
    Yes, I agree. I'm certain that I display hypocritical aspects on a daily basis without knowing or intending to do so.


    To me, hypocrisy becomes more prevalent when a person is either telling or implying that I should behave a certain way, rather than just being inconsistent in a way that doesn't affect me. It can even affect me if I simply perceive that the person is judging me, whether my perception is accurate or not.

  6. #16
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor View Post
    Yes, I agree. I'm certain that I display hypocritical aspects on a daily basis without knowing or intending to do so.
    I've said it elsewhere, but I believe it bears repeating:

    If you can consistently live up to your ideals, you need better ideals.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  7. #17
    Another factor that contributes to hypocrisy is the fact that we have a strong urge to justify/rationalise our own actions, while others aren't usually given the same leniency.

    For example, say you always spout on the importance of manners and conducting oneself with civility. However, today you bump into Margot at the church lunch club and you remember that she didn't send you a Christmas card this year, despite you sending her one without fail for more than a decade.

    As you are all leaving you 'forget' to hold the large door open and allow it to slam in poor Margot's face. You half suppress a satisfied smirk while putting on the expected airs of concern for her well-being. Everyone at the lunch club that witnessed the whole event could plainly see it was intentional, but everyone is too polite to confront you directly and make a scene. Instead they wait for you to leave and have an enthusiastic discussion about how your medication has made you unstable, and that you haven't been the same since your son left home and moved in with a mustached interior decorator from the rough side of Chichester.

    From your point of view, you were fully justified in teaching that bitch Margot some manners. It doesn't matter that her husband died this year and that it was normally his job to do the Christmas cards. If someone sends you a card you should damn well send one back.

  8. #18
    a cantori Perdix's Avatar
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    I think the premise of this argument is invalid as both the instructor and student are being treated as if they're the same object.

    The phrase "Do as I say and not as I do" was used a lot this weekend when I got open water certified, sometimes doing things one way for one person is not optimal for another.

    Let's say an instructor pre-breathed nitrous oxide before switching to Heliox for a deep dive, he has another dive instructor with him who knows what's up, but the class doesn't. It would make sense for the first instructor to say "Do as I say and not as I do." when starting to prepare to prevent students from trying to pre-breath nitrous which would be harmless, but a waste of nitrous.

    Anyways, I think the premise of this argument is false.

  9. #19
    Pan_Sonic_000
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    Without an objective moral standard, there's no point in being bothered by it.

  10. #20
    Member Viktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    I've said it elsewhere, but I believe it bears repeating:

    If you can consistently live up to your ideals, you need better ideals.
    LOL ... yeah, bar set kinda low if I'm consistently hitting that mark.

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