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Thread: Making a Murderer

  1. #1
    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    Making a Murderer

    All around the internet I see people white knighting for this Steven Avery and after watching the series, I still don't get it. A victim of police corruption and framing? Not buying it. Jury came back with the correct decision.

    I am wondering if I'll be in the minority opinion here too. Anyone watch this?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    All around the internet I see people white knighting for this Steven Avery and after watching the series, I still don't get it. A victim of police corruption and framing? Not buying it. Jury came back with the correct decision.

    I am wondering if I'll be in the minority opinion here too. Anyone watch this?
    Ha, I almost started a thread on this late December.

    That wasn't a documentary -- it was a bit (okay, a lot) of audience manipulation. It seems pretty hard to find straight, objective documentary coverage these days; anyway, Steve Avery's past was sugar-coated (only a brief mention of the cat), and he had a history of violence with women. He also allegedly molested Dassey and another relative. I'll look for links.

    Caveat: I do think the police department in that god forsaken county is corrupt as hell. The Dassey interviews were bullshit -- no lawyer, no parent, plus it was pretty obvious he didn't entirely grasp the situation. After "confessing," he said he needed to get back to school in time for a project. That was a very sad moment. He didn't know he was never leaving prison. His first lawyer saw him as a pawn...and, when he had to read and sign anything, I have doubts re: his comprehension. Dassey had a verbal IQ of 67.


    Scraping up info:

    http://www.avclub.com/article/read-d...making--230224

    -In the months leading up to Halbach’s disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.

    -Halbach had complained to her boss that she didn’t want to go out to Avery’s trailer anymore, because once when she came out, Avery was waiting for her wearing only a towel (this was excluded for being too inflammatory). Avery clearly had an obsession with Halbach.

    -On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.

    -The bullet with Halbach’s DNA on it came from Avery’s gun, which always hung above his bed.

    -Avery had purchased handcuffs and leg irons like the ones Dassey described holding Halbach only three weeks before (Avery said he’s purchased them for use with his girlfriend, Jodi, with whom he’d had a tumultuous relationship — at one point, he was ordered by police to stay away from her for three days).

    - Here’s the piece of evidence that was presented at trial but not in the series that I find most convincing: In Dassey’s illegally obtained statement, Dassey stated that he helped Avery moved the RAV4 into the junkyard and that Avery had lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Even if you believe that the blood in Halbach’s car was planted by the cops (as I do), there was also non-blood DNA evidence on the hood latch. I don’t believe the police would plant — or know to plant — that evidence.

    "...evidence that Halbach’s Palm Pilot and camera were found in Avery’s burn barrel, and that Brendan Dassey told police he’d been molested by Avery in the past."
    There's more. I think that Avery's sweat was found on Halbach's vehicle -- I don't see how that could have been planted unless there's something I don't know.

    IMO, the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong, but more forensic evidence was needed to convict Dassey...I don't think any of Halbach's blood was found in Avery's house? It would have been nearly impossible to clean the place that well, so I don't know about the whole "throat slashing" in bedroom bit by Dassey.

    With the evidence presented in the documtary, and even with more info about Avery's antisocial proclivities, I would have leaned toward "Not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt," although I do think he's guilty of her murder, but the prosecution lacked hard evidence. They did have a few extra miles to cover given local cops inappropriate meddling/history with the family. The sweat convinced me.

    Dassey was overcharged with almost no evidence that I know about?

    Problem with Casey Anthony: she was overcharged. No proof she murdered her little girl, but girl was last seen in her custody, and then her bones were found...plus mom didn't report her missing child? Is there a "criminal negligence resulting in death" charge? She would have been convicted with a charge like that, imo.
    Last edited by Lurker; 02-03-2016 at 02:25 AM.


  3. #3
    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    I do feel bad for the nephew Dassey, I think his case was much more interesting. They didn't go into depth about his lawyers. I didn't know if it was a bigger figure doing pro bono work or a public defender; they didn't have Steven's money to rely on for great counsel. When that one lawyer allowed Dassey to be questioned without the lawyer being there I wanted to yell at the TV. I agree with you that his statement of how the crime happened seems unlikely given the lack of DNA evidence in the bedroom that would likely be there....then again, the series only showed like, 10 minutes of what is probably 6 hours of taped questioning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker View Post
    Problem with Casey Anthony: she was overcharged. No proof she murdered her little girl, but girl was last seen in her custody, and then her bones were found...plus mom didn't report her missing child? Is there a "criminal negligence resulting in death" charge? She would have been convicted with a charge like that, imo.
    I agree with this. There was no history of abuse or poor treatment between Casey Anthony and her child to support the prosecution's argument that she killed the kid out of resentment. In fact, IIRC people who knew them testified the opposite; that Casey seemed like a pretty good mom who loved her kid. But I can believe that she accidentally OD'd the kid on chloroform because she's an idiot.

    I have not followed the Avery case.

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    Scobblelotcher Sistamatic's Avatar
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    If you ask me, the entire documentary is a really well made case for the importance of meticulous police work, clear chains of evidence, and keeping officers with a conflict of interest well away from a murder investigation because at this point, it doesn't matter what really happened because every single piece of evidence became suspect due to police mishandling. The local police fucked up. They are the reason we are having this conversation. If Avery is a murderer and he ends up walking, it will be their fault.
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

    I'm not avoiding socializing I'm helping socializing avoid me! --MoneyJungle

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    Senior Member Senseye's Avatar
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    I've just started watching it (first 2 episodes). It's clear local law enforcement framed Avery for the rape. So one mark on his side.

    I'm aware of media bias, of course, so I am paying special attention to all the Avery interviews just to see how he acts. So far my impression is he is not bright enough to convincingly con anyone, so if he acts innocent convincingly in upcoming interviews, I'll be hard pressed to believe it is because he is a good actor vs telling the truth. Although I guess he will have a lot more legal help in the murder case (i.e. telling him what to say). Maybe he will seem more sketchy than in the rape case.

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    igKnight Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker View Post
    There's more. I think that Avery's sweat was found on Halbach's vehicle -- I don't see how that could have been planted unless there's something I don't know.
    Sweat is easy to plant. People sweat all the time. Steal someone's gym clothes--or even just the socks they wore that day--and you have a bunch of their sweat. Now wipe your purloined sweat rag on something. Bam! Now you have their sweat on something.

    Hell, you could even get it without stealing anything. Just offer a hand towel to wipe their face off with on a hot day, then take the towel back.
    --Mention of these things is so taboo, they aren't even allowed a name for the prohibition. It is just not done.

  8. #8
    Member Penguinhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    I do feel bad for the nephew Dassey, I think his case was much more interesting. . .When that one lawyer allowed Dassey to be questioned without the lawyer being there I wanted to yell at the TV.
    Heh, my wife was getting so angry that she decided to stop watching the show.

    The Dassey trial was insane. I think he was basically convicted because Avery had already been convicted and the jury couldn't be bothered to look at his case seriously after that. When you see him talking to police by himself and just saying whatever random, self-contradictory shit comes into his head, it seems crazy that any of his account of events could have been admitted as evidence. There's no DNA, no eye-witness, just a malleable kid being worked over by police and a defense attorney that might as well be working for the prosecution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senseye View Post
    I'm aware of media bias, of course, so I am paying special attention to all the Avery interviews just to see how he acts. So far my impression is he is not bright enough to convincingly con anyone
    Totally, one of the most frustrating things about the series is that no one is particularly bright. It's just a bunch of dumb people screwing over slightly dumber people all the way down. Avery might well be guilty. He was too dumb to pull of some of the stuff in Dassey's accounts (because it was completely fabricated!) but he wasn't too dumb to kill Halbach and badly hide the evidence (see Lurker's post for more details). But even if he is guilty, there should have been a mistrial given all the shenanigans that the police were up to every step of the way.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penguinhunter View Post
    Totally, one of the most frustrating things about the series is that no one is particularly bright. It's just a bunch of dumb people screwing over slightly dumber people all the way down. Avery might well be guilty. He was too dumb to pull of some of the stuff in Dassey's accounts (because it was completely fabricated!) but he wasn't too dumb to kill Halbach and badly hide the evidence (see Lurker's post for more details). But even if he is guilty, there should have been a mistrial given all the shenanigans that the police were up to every step of the way.
    I have so many trains of thought regarding this clusterfuck; however, briefly, I have a hard time seeing small-time fuck-ups going full Ted Bundy all of a sudden. Particularly the poor kid. He was not bright enough to be considered competent, imo.

    As for reasonable doubt: I wouldn't have convicted Avery had I been a juror because of the conflict of interest and inappropriate involvement of Manitasomething Cty police/investigators. That should have sunk the trial, I agree. Really, without her body and more definite (uncompromised) evidence, Avery should have walked. Even though he's probably guilty as hell.

    Will reply to other posts later. Lots to say, esp about Anthony.


  10. #10
    was here.. LordLatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker View Post
    ...this clusterfuck...
    Apt, that.

    I would like to make an irrelevant base comment:
    Looks like all the people of that town are dumb and ugly.

    And this dude seems to love that hideous shirt-sweater thing as he was wearing when deposed for the other case:
    Last edited by LordLatch; 02-04-2016 at 05:18 AM.
    This just in: I'm accepting all friend requests too unless you're a fricken jerk and I can't stand your existence and inane drivel. If that's the case, then I'll accept your friend request so I can keep an eye on your ass unless you don't hold any interest for me; then only the threat of keeping my eye on you stands. feces

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