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Thread: A Different Case for The Wall

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    Zombie Jesus Bloody School Daze's Avatar
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    A Different Case for The Wall

    To start, a couple videos:

    First up, why a border wall might actually raise the immigrant population overall.

    And, second up, this point here about why deportation might lead to legal immigrants and citizens leaving the country.

    Now, I don't think that personal connection through a nation is a valid reason to favor someone, but on the face of it I do see something wrong with a system that deports even people who aren't illegal immigrants, plus why the deportation of these people is worth it might actually be a worthwhile topic to tangent off to from this. So, on to the point:

    I think that, though a wall ultimately causes more people to stay in the country when they otherwise would have left than it does prevent people from coming in, both of those numbers are likely lower. And lower overall traffic means less strain on the immigration courts--less deportation, while simultaneously putting immigrant populations (Before considering children) on a downward trend.

    I don't necessarily know if it's worth keeping people (often in horrible situations) from coming in to prevent these deportations, but if there's a valid way to help potential immigrants in Mexico or Latin America or anywhere else that works better, maybe that's a win-win-win.

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    I don't think a wall is going to stop illegals from entering the country from Mexico, it will just move the problem to the coast as they all start coming by boat. I have to admit though, there is a lot I don't understand about the thought process of illegal immigrants.

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    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    A good portion of illegal immigrants are people who came into the country legally but overstayed their visas.

    I'm more in favor of reform on the employment end. Make an electronic eligibility verification system to weed out identity theft cases*, and prosecute businesses who employ people who are here illegally.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061800613.html This article is old as shit so who knows how relevant it is, but it shows how government has tried to avoid prosecuting people here illegally once they get pushbacks from affected employers. I feel like the people who I know who want a wall think we have tried everything and it isn't working--not really the case.

    If the US wants to spend a bunch of money to curb illegal immigration (and exploring if it makes sense financially/ethically/what have you could be fodder for another thread), I think there are better methods to do so than a wall.

    *actually maybe they have this now? who knows, it's been ages since I really gave a shit about this issue, sorry
    Last edited by oxyjen; 11-21-2016 at 06:37 PM.

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    Senior Member jyng1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    I think there are better methods to do so than a wall.
    You should just dig a moat. Our one works pretty well (it is 2,000 kms wide though, so you might be digging for a while).

  5. #5
    If I went and overstayed my visa in any other country in the world, including Mexico I would be justifiably subject to deportation. I have no issue with anyone from anywhere who is here legally, well maybe the H1B system but that's another issue. I think a lot of contention with this issue comes from re-framing the debate from "illegal immigrants" to "undocumented migrants", allowing those with an agenda to polarize it on a false, emotionally charged basis. I know taking away a cheap, free to abuse undocumented labor force probably rubs some the wrong way.

    Why not just to bury a vibration sensitive sensor array and ir cameras?

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    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starla View Post
    I have to admit though, there is a lot I don't understand about the thought process of illegal immigrants.
    Mexico is almost a terrorist narco-state whose main client and enabler is the United States, so it's a little preposterous that the United States would basically say yes to the drug trade that has ruined Mexico, but no to the people trying to flee from the consequences.

    I mean I find it hard to muster sympathy for anyone fleeing to the United States of all places, but I think that if I lived in Mexico, especially as a woman, I might even consider that myself.

    As a side-note, other Central American and Caribbean countries have seen their crime stats go up after Obama deported criminals who were essentially schooled in US gangs and prisons. That is how some normally peaceful countries began seeing crimes the likes of which had never been seen in their countries before (I used to live in one of those countries, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines). Obama has deported more illegal immigrants than any other US president - 2.5 million.
    Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent. - Mao

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    Senior Member jyng1's Avatar
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    It's also the international border with the highest average wage differential in the world (5 times). If you were in the States and you could get 5 times the income in Canada... who wouldn't pop over the border for a few years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    As a side-note, other Central American and Caribbean countries have seen their crime stats go up after Obama deported criminals who were essentially schooled in US gangs and prisons. That is how some normally peaceful countries began seeing crimes the likes of which had never been seen in their countries before (I used to live in one of those countries, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines). Obama has deported more illegal immigrants than any other US president - 2.5 million.
    And? Should we have kept all the illegal psychopaths here?
    "Doesn't matter what a man has if he doesn't have purpose. You take that away from him, man usually goes with it." -Beau

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    Minister of Love Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    Mexico is almost a terrorist narco-state whose main client and enabler is the United States, so it's a little preposterous that the United States would basically say yes to the drug trade that has ruined Mexico, but no to the people trying to flee from the consequences.

    I mean I find it hard to muster sympathy for anyone fleeing to the United States of all places, but I think that if I lived in Mexico, especially as a woman, I might even consider that myself.

    As a side-note, other Central American and Caribbean countries have seen their crime stats go up after Obama deported criminals who were essentially schooled in US gangs and prisons. That is how some normally peaceful countries began seeing crimes the likes of which had never been seen in their countries before (I used to live in one of those countries, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines). Obama has deported more illegal immigrants than any other US president - 2.5 million.
    Fucking Christ, yeah, Honduras is pretty much a war zone being fought over (using what amounts, in many cases, to mass forced conscription of child soldiers, among other atrocities) by the regional branches of two gangs from Los Angeles*, with their war efforts being funded mostly (like at least 75% in the estimates I've seen) by Americans who pay them to truck Colombian and Peruvian "party favors" through the countries that simply happen to have the geographical misfortune of being located between the countries where the "entrepreneurs" producing it live and the country where our future presidents are currently using it to engage in "minor youthful indiscretions" with.


    (And even that's just if we don't think about how the conditions that make the drug trade such an outsized economic force in those countries compared to anything else that's available to most people there in terms of gainful employment are largely the result of our government periodically arranging to bump off politicians and/or sponsor mass terrorism campaigns for the sake of preventing large portions of the populace from getting to own any of the land in their own countries.)


    People here who take up the whole "Dur but what if they bring their countries' problems here with them? Why should we have to deal with any of that?" mentality all sincerely deserve to get punched in the dick.



    *Like seriously, one of the two biggest criminal organizations in Honduras is literally named after a street in L.A. ("Barrio 18")
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    A good portion of illegal immigrants are people who came into the country legally but overstayed their visas.
    Yeah, this is what I don't understand about the thought process of illegal immigrants. Why would you pay a coyote thousands of dollars to escort you through the desert with no water and then abandon you at the first sign of CBP when you can just buy a 4 night round trip vacation package for Disneyland for your whole family and just not go home? I mean, there must be a better way to get into the country than a coyote.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    I'm more in favor of reform on the employment end. Make an electronic eligibility verification system to weed out identity theft cases*, and prosecute businesses who employ people who are here illegally.
    This only works if you can weed out identity theft cases. I imagine the majority of employers with a largely illegal workforce have some inkling that the folks they've hired are using assumed identities. Some may be turning a blind eye, but I imagine there are plenty of employers who checked their employee's papers, found them to be in order, and can do nothing more without crossing the line into harrassment despite their suspicions.

    Electronic eligibility verification also requires you to give a lot of information to whomever is checking your papers. Basically, twitchy has access to pretty much all of my identification documentation so long as he has my SSN. He can stalk me for the rest of my life (or at least as long as he has this job or any other job vetting employees through e-verify). And while he's not exactly mentally stable, I'm sure there are worse people who could have this information in other small businesses. Maybe a large corporation with an HR department could implement controls on access to such personal information, but is every small town pizzeria going to be able to do this?

    I also think small businesses have a point when they say that it's the federal government's job to make sure illegals aren't in the country to begin with, not theirs. But of course that argument falls flat when you consider there are plenty people who are here legally but aren't legally allowed to work.

    But my biggest problem with fining employers for employing people who are here illegally is that a lot of employers will just not hire immigrants or anyone who doesn't seem American enough on first glance to avoid the possibility of getting into trouble. That is punishing the people who went about things the right way and are here legally and eligible to work for the inability of our government to enforce their own laws.

    Basically, I think the problem is more complicated than just fining employers for hiring illegals. Most scrupulous employers with the means to do so already do a pretty good job maintaining a legal workforce. Small businesses and businesses who know they're hiring illegals but figure it's worth the risk are going to remain a problem.

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