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Thread: INTP relationship woes...?

  1. #21
    TJ TeresaJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    You don't take hard stands on controversial subjects, you go to church, and your entire family looks like they fell out of a fashion catalog. You don't have to code switch to fit in, you just have to be yourself. Of course it is easy for you. You are socially acceptable as is. You aren't an atheist woman in the south, you aren't in situations that require you to wear heels and dresses that make you feel idiotic and exposed. You just open your closet, put on the appropriate clothes you own and like for the situation, show up, and talk about how awesome church and your kids are, and let everyone know how you don't disagree with the stand they have taken because you aren't convinced one way or the other of what is correct.
    I vote that this part gets cross-posted to the Robcore roast thread.
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  2. #22
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post


    Yes, @Robcore. They are.

    "But sista, if you'd just try harder, you would be better at socializing."
    Are you able to spot subtle cues made by characters on tv shows that you watch? Maybe I miss a ton of cues in real life, but if I'm doing fine in real life as I think, then I think it's safe to say that real people don't do a whole lot differently than tv characters in terms of cues.
    As such, I don't think there is some inherent complexity to these cues that introverts are wired to be incompetent at understanding. The difficulty arises out of the circumstances in which we're identifying them. Stress or anxiety can play a big part in inhibiting the development of a skill.


    You don't take hard stands on controversial subjects,
    I kind of take the opposite stance, much of the time, to whatever the status-quo position in the room is, lol. But then, I definitely don't take a hard-line stance given my policy of holding beliefs as provisional. Also, if there are positions that I do take a hard-line on, I recognize that if my intention is to persuade(and on my hard-line positions I do intend to persuade), then it rarely does any good to go on the offensive straight away...so I seek to understand the underlying pathology behind the other person's belief. It's a good socializing habit...people generally like to talk about themselves...and then when you get to talking about you, you can frame it in terms of them.

    you go to church,
    enough to annoy atheists, but not frequently enough to please devotees...but okay.

    and your entire family looks like they fell out of a fashion catalog.
    Not sure what looks have to do with it? I know a lot of folks who don't fit any stereotypical standard of beauty who are great socializers. If the guy has been in a relationship with the girl for 3 years, I don't think looks are a viable barrier anyhow.

    You don't have to code switch to fit in, you just have to be yourself.
    I'm always switching code. Always. My 'self' is not static. Changing my code has been the essence of my journey of self-improvement, and I've got much to show for it. It is easier in many ways now than it was in the past...but difficulty doesn't trump necessity.

    Of course it is easy for you. You are socially acceptable as is. You aren't an atheist woman in the south, you aren't in situations that require you to wear heels and dresses that make you feel idiotic and exposed. You just open your closet, put on the appropriate clothes you own and like for the situation, show up, and talk about how awesome church and your kids are, and let everyone know how you don't disagree with the stand they have taken because you aren't convinced one way or the other of what is correct.
    I have some privilege, sure....but last time I checked, none of these things is a factor in whether a person can socialize(they might affect the size of the social network that you're interested in maintaining, though). I mean, you've got a ton of interestingness going for you precisely because you're not run-of-the-mill...and that could all be leveraged into some stellar exchanges. Debating is a form of socializing, too...it isn't all about not rocking the boat.

    There was a time in my life when I would never raise my hand or speak up in front of people...when I would shake and sweat and mumble if I had to speak in front of people...when I was tall and lanky and all my shirts and pants were too short for my limbs and torso, and I really only had a couple of shirts that I had to wear several times each week to school. Times when I was the only non-drinker/non-drug user among my friends, when I was the only spiritual one among my friends...so what? difference is not the opposite of socializing. I love to socialize most with people that can offer a unique perspective, and I'm sure you're not terribly different that way.
    Willingness to accommodate different perspectives is part of socializing at times...but you can disagree, too! I suppose I just don't get what you're saying other than "it's hard and it must have come easy for you because of factors that have nothing to do with whether you can socialize or not". It was a long journey to get here.

    Coping with extroverts is a needed skill. On that we agree. Just because it is easy for you doesn't mean it is easy for everyone. I'm telling you it is extremely exhausting for me and that it's not because I haven't made an effort.
    Swimming is exhausting for me, and probably precisely due to the fact that I put in way more effort than is necessary. As I said earlier, it is less about effort, and more about reducing resistance/drag. The resistance/drag is what makes the energy cost so high. Extroverts don't have 'exponentially greater energy', they just refrain from wasting it like others do. http://www.taoism.net/chuang/butcher.htm This Taoist parable explains what I'm talking about well.
    Putting the principle in that parable to work, I can come across as perfectly sociable now without even saying anything(sometimes, lol).

    I socialize with people on a regular basis and I'm one of those people who winds up at the head table trying to make smalltalk with a governor's wife or some such shit more often than you'd imagine. I believe you when you say it's no big deal for you. I'm not even surprised. I'm telling you that no matter how much training I get in this, it's torture. It's kind of depressing just how much I have to pretend I am not myself in order to be accepted. Turns out that atheist women who don't obsess over make up and hair and nails are a tough sell in the south. To such an extent that if I'm too much myself at one of my husband's work functions, I could cost us our livelihood.
    I dunno. I don't think socializing is about being yourself, necessarily. Lots of great phony extrovert socializers out there. People are usually more interested in themselves anyway. I don't invest much though into whether others accept me, because I just presume they don't know me well enough anyhow. I'm complex and multi-faceted...and to expect to convey that via small-talk is unrealistic.

    I think of it like this: there are mundane, uninteresting things that I have to do in my life...and that could be doing the laundry or making small talk with someone that I should network with...and there are times when the thought of doing the laundry can be totally exhausting, and then actually doing it is even worse. However, when it comes to the laundry, I also recognize that the laundry is not to blame for my dislike of it...I can choose a different attitude. Same goes for socializing/small talk. By just changing my expectation of what I'd like to get out of that time in terms of satisfaction, it can transform the whole experience.

    This person you have gotten to know on INTPx is way more me than anyone the socialites of my world will ever have a glimpse of.
    It's an easier platform, for sure.
    I think of it like this...I can play chess.
    Playing chess against people of my skill level is easier, and more enjoyable.
    Put me at a table with Bobby Fisher, though, and it'd be dishonest to say that I can't play chess...or even that I'm hard-wired to not be able to get better. All of those impulse excuses are only due to the fact that his aptitude is intimidating to me.
    I can give up being intimidated though...like how Spock might. Intimidation is emotional. Make peace with the F, and nurture the E. You don't have to win in order to play.
    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

  3. #23
    non-canonical Light Leak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robcore View Post
    Are you able to spot subtle cues made by characters on tv shows that you watch? Maybe I miss a ton of cues in real life, but if I'm doing fine in real life as I think, then I think it's safe to say that real people don't do a whole lot differently than tv characters in terms of cues.
    TV seems way different than real life to me. They point the camera directly at what you're supposed to be looking at on TV, and you get to see other people's reactions. Plus they add music cues and stuff that lead you on. There's none of that IRL. It's confusing IRL.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic
    In all my relationships -- not just the romantic one -- I've always had trouble with subtext. There's so much of it and I miss almost all of it and those who know me well have all had occasion to laugh their asses off as I stumble obliviously over landmines that are obvious to everyone else. Sigh.
    Apologies for the context-free paragraph nab, but it suited my needs for this post.

    So, you just gave the exact reason why a direct, honest approach is best for the INTP in a relationship --- sometimes missing the point is funny, sometimes it ends a relationship. And, it is damn stressful to try to guess what someone else is thinking or feeling.

    Eventually, I just think, "Fuck you, you coy jerk."

  5. #25
    Scobblelotcher Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robcore View Post
    Are you able to spot subtle cues made by characters on tv shows that you watch? Maybe I miss a ton of cues in real life, but if I'm doing fine in real life as I think, then I think it's safe to say that real people don't do a whole lot differently than tv characters in terms of cues.
    As such, I don't think there is some inherent complexity to these cues that introverts are wired to be incompetent at understanding. The difficulty arises out of the circumstances in which we're identifying them. Stress or anxiety can play a big part in inhibiting the development of a skill.
    It's not really about the development of the skill here, it's about whether or not it's ok to demand that one use a skill they hate using. I study people quite a bit. I'm trying to become a fiction writer, so that's sort of a thing...getting into other people's heads and thinking the way they do and seeing things from their point of view. It's not so much that it's impossible to recognize cues as it is the fact that it is impossible to cultivate an appropriate response without lying about what you think and feel. If I'm talking to my brother, I can sense the cue and respond with the appropriate piece of who I really am and all is well. With most people it's more about culling everything that the real me would say and coming up with the right thing to say. That's more than a response, it's like having to write a play in real time. I'm tired of it and of the implication that there is anything wrong with behaving like an introvert. Tear down the damns ... sure there'll be some damage up front, but then we won't have to maintain all these barriers between who we are and who everyone wants us to be.


    I kind of take the opposite stance, much of the time, to whatever the status-quo position in the room is, lol. But then, I definitely don't take a hard-line stance given my policy of holding beliefs as provisional. Also, if there are positions that I do take a hard-line on, I recognize that if my intention is to persuade(and on my hard-line positions I do intend to persuade), then it rarely does any good to go on the offensive straight away...so I seek to understand the underlying pathology behind the other person's belief. It's a good socializing habit...people generally like to talk about themselves...and then when you get to talking about you, you can frame it in terms of them.
    Have you ever been the only person in the room who thinks abortion should be legal when it comes up? Have you ever been asked to say the prayer at a table full of Christians who can ruin your professional life and had to tell them you aren't a Christian? Ever been the only person at the christening of your friend's kid who didn't know how to do the whole call and response thing? Ever spent the day at the funeral of a grandparent being comforted by scores of people who tell you that it's all ok because she's in a place you don't even believe exists and simultaneously had to struggle to comfort people by pretending you believe things you don't? It's not that I can't argue with people, it's that I have to choose between arguing with them or presenting them with a facade that won't make them want to argue. If I know people will be offended by the reality of what I believe, I should have the option of saying nothing or not showing up.

    enough to annoy atheists, but not frequently enough to please devotees...but okay.
    I'm not ever the one who brings up religion at the party. But when it comes up, I'm usually in a room full of people who all believe in god and don't like people who don't. I'm saying that's a reality for those who aren't in mainstream religions. Can you not see how that can make social situations uncomfortable?

    Not sure what looks have to do with it? I know a lot of folks who don't fit any stereotypical standard of beauty who are great socializers. If the guy has been in a relationship with the girl for 3 years, I don't think looks are a viable barrier anyhow.
    Not the physical beauty, the style, and the both of you have it. Did you know that some people purchase stock photos instead of posting their own breakfast and hire photographers to present them and their family for facebook and instagram and whatnot. Your family photos resemble stock photos. Maybe it's because you arrange it that way as part of your journey of self improvement. What if you got invited to a party tomorrow night and you knew that nothing your wife had in her entire closet would be acceptable attire and you were both really busy and didn't really have time to go figure out what kind of attire would be appropriate? Would you decline that invitation? Would you show up in the wrong clothes knowing that it would embarrass the host and seem disrespectful? What if you found that the attire was more than you needed to spend and wasn't something you'd wear anywhere else?

    What if that described almost all the invites you had?


    I'm always switching code. Always. My 'self' is not static. Changing my code has been the essence of my journey of self-improvement, and I've got much to show for it. It is easier in many ways now than it was in the past...but difficulty doesn't trump necessity.
    Code switching isn't changing yourself, it's presenting a veneer that isn't you so that the people around you can relate better. Like the way some groups use one vernacular around family and friends and another around coworkers who are in the mainstream group. I think everyone code-switches to some degree, but the more homogeneous you are with the people around you, the less you have to. It sounds like you've worked very hard to become a person who rarely needs to code switch.

    I have some privilege, sure....but last time I checked, none of these things is a factor in whether a person can socialize(they might affect the size of the social network that you're interested in maintaining, though). I mean, you've got a ton of interestingness going for you precisely because you're not run-of-the-mill...and that could all be leveraged into some stellar exchanges. Debating is a form of socializing, too...it isn't all about not rocking the boat.
    Oh sure, and I do great in front of a classroom, or in a room full of other interesting people who give a crap about anything other than social rules, but these are not the social situations I'm constantly forced into. I'm about to spend almost 80 percent of my discretionary funds for the first half of 2017 on the incidentals of an in-laws inauguration (no I'm not related to trump). Fancy dinner clothes, 50 dollar's worth of uber or cab to get to every meal for a week, a week's worth of clothing and shoes that I'll never wear again because I won't be able to get away with anything I have in my closet right now without embarrassing someone important, and not one single bit of the things that make me interesting amount to a hill of beans to these people. They are all just praying I won't be weird and embarrass them and wondering why my husband married such a plebeian slob. All the things I leverage socially is are liabilities in the majority of these situations. These are sit down, shut up, look pretty, and let the important people talk situations. I won't say I don't get good character fodder out of these things, but god I hate them. I hate them, Rob. I hate spending so much money on it, I hate the utter lack of control I have in these situations, I hate how long they take, I hate the way that I go from social thing to social thing from sunup to sundown for days on end. I can rock a boat just fine, but I can't rock this fucking ship. I don't have enough power.

    There was a time in my life when I would never raise my hand or speak up in front of people...when I would shake and sweat and mumble if I had to speak in front of people...when I was tall and lanky and all my shirts and pants were too short for my limbs and torso, and I really only had a couple of shirts that I had to wear several times each week to school. Times when I was the only non-drinker/non-drug user among my friends, when I was the only spiritual one among my friends...so what? difference is not the opposite of socializing. I love to socialize most with people that can offer a unique perspective, and I'm sure you're not terribly different that way.
    Willingness to accommodate different perspectives is part of socializing at times...but you can disagree, too! I suppose I just don't get what you're saying other than "it's hard and it must have come easy for you because of factors that have nothing to do with whether you can socialize or not". It was a long journey to get here.
    I'm not even a little bit shy. I'd probably be better off socially if I was. My problem isn't what I don't say. It's the unintended subtext in everything I do say.

    Swimming is exhausting for me, and probably precisely due to the fact that I put in way more effort than is necessary. As I said earlier, it is less about effort, and more about reducing resistance/drag. The resistance/drag is what makes the energy cost so high. Extroverts don't have 'exponentially greater energy', they just refrain from wasting it like others do. http://www.taoism.net/chuang/butcher.htm This Taoist parable explains what I'm talking about well.
    Putting the principle in that parable to work, I can come across as perfectly sociable now without even saying anything(sometimes, lol).
    I'm good at swimming. (I took first place in ten events at my last Master's meet 6 years ago.) I quit the master's team because it was socially exhausting. They started having prayer meetings before practice, I kept opting out of them, and before too long, everyone got cold toward me. It's a shame. Swimming is the perfect introvert sport. You can't hear, you can't talk, it's you and your breath and the water. Unfortunately there's no good place to swim without being on a team. I am constantly considering trying again. It's been a few years and I've already invested in all the team gear. Now that I don't have to sit through hours of meetings at work anymore every week I may have the energy to go through being ostracized without feeling shitty about it. Feeling unwanted by the people who are your team, whose uniform you wear, and whose success you contribute to...it is hard not to be affected by that no matter how introverted and Spocklike you are.

    I dunno. I don't think socializing is about being yourself, necessarily. Lots of great phony extrovert socializers out there. People are usually more interested in themselves anyway. I don't invest much though into whether others accept me, because I just presume they don't know me well enough anyhow. I'm complex and multi-faceted...and to expect to convey that via small-talk is unrealistic.
    This is how I distinguish between needless socializing and good socializing. This right here, what we are doing right now, this is not pointless. We are talking about ourselves, exploring things, being real, not putting on fancy clothes and fancy facades and parading around trying to spin doctor everything.The clothes and makeup and veneers are just waste of time.

    I think of it like this: there are mundane, uninteresting things that I have to do in my life...and that could be doing the laundry or making small talk with someone that I should network with...and there are times when the thought of doing the laundry can be totally exhausting, and then actually doing it is even worse. However, when it comes to the laundry, I also recognize that the laundry is not to blame for my dislike of it...I can choose a different attitude. Same goes for socializing/small talk. By just changing my expectation of what I'd like to get out of that time in terms of satisfaction, it can transform the whole experience.
    I don't have enough time to do everything I want to do, so when I socialize, I'm doing it instead of something else. I've already got more friends than I have time for. Every new friend just shoves more liquid over the edge of the already full glass. I am trying very hard to live efficiently so that I won't have to go back to teaching before the book comes out, and every social invite is another fucking drain on the wallet in clothes, gifts, travel, food, and the ridiculous inefficiency of eating, drinking, and living when you aren't at home. It's also more time spent away from editing and writing, more time away from filming, more time away from all the projects I have going on. Doing laundry leads to clean clothes. Doing socializing leads to spending money and being separated from the entire infrastructure I need to accomplish my goals. And the more successful I am at it, the more expectations of friendships I don't have time for get created.

    Reality: It takes me a while to build momentum on projects. Many of the social things I can't get out of require me to step completely out of my life, usually for more than a day, sometimes for as long as a week, not including the shopping and prep for the trip, etc. It holds me back. It's too much to ask, and yet it is a condition of my inclusion in my husband's family.

    It's an easier platform, for sure.
    I think of it like this...I can play chess.
    Playing chess against people of my skill level is easier, and more enjoyable.
    Put me at a table with Bobby Fisher, though, and it'd be dishonest to say that I can't play chess...or even that I'm hard-wired to not be able to get better. All of those impulse excuses are only due to the fact that his aptitude is intimidating to me.
    I can give up being intimidated though...like how Spock might. Intimidation is emotional. Make peace with the F, and nurture the E. You don't have to win in order to play.
    I don't care about winning the social game. Winning just leads to more games. I want the option of opting out of the game entirely when I don't have the time, energy, or resources to spare, and I've yet to find a way to do that without hurting people's feelings.

    I can't even remember the last time I was alone for more than a few hours at a time. It's something I need. I really really need it. My home is supposed to be my refuge and I just keep losing more and more ground. It's the greatest pressure of our marriage. My need for solitude vs. his need for social inclusion. It's literally painful for me to give ground on this and he pushes constantly. I've already got someone in the house doing lan parties with him 4 nights a week, plus 4 or 5 people over for his 40k stuff every other weekend, plus all the social events his mom needs us for out of town, plus the PR gigs where we sit at head tables while he MCs, plus the usual parade of weddings, funerals, family functions, etc. that life brings, then throw in the holidays.

    I'll admit it's a sore point for me...this idea that we introverts need to just try harder and it will all be easy. BULLSHIT I'm so far out of my comfort zone it's maddening, and it is never enough. The more ground I give, the more ground is expected of me. The better my social performance, the more comfortable people are with including me more. At this point, I'm leery of doing too good a job socially...I need to be less proficient so that people will know better than to expect anything great.

    I don't need to try harder, I need more space. The less I socialize, the better I am at it. If I am expected to, on rare occasion, step out of my comfort zone and my life and travel and dress up and do all these things, I do beautifully and I am able to regain my life momentum in between trips, but when I'm constantly being pulled out of life just as I reach my stride, I become frustrated. By the end of the holiday season I've put so much into it that I can't even remember where I was in all the things I was trying to do. I know that there are people who can go to a party, come home, and just pick back up where they were. I can't. I'm not saying I'm not willing to try, I'm saying I'm a 45 year old woman with good stats and loads of xp who has tried all kinds of novel approaches and I'm just not capable of that.

    You can learn some extrovert skills, but you cannot have both sides of that coin up at the same time. I'm not a failure for failing to be an extrovert. I'm failing at being an introvert because I'm constantly trying to behave like an extrovert.

    My self improvement project right now is not to be more extroverted, but to stop trying to pretend I am. Living at odds with myself isn't helping. I'm not ashamed of being a raging introvert. Not even a little bit. I've stopped working so hard on having the right clothes for my mil's things. I've stopped trying to be the perfect smalltalker at parties. I've stopped attempting to follow rules I think are stupid. I'll wear whatever fucking color of stupid impractical shoes with my stupid impractical dress that I want, and if someone points and stares, I'll wave and say hi. I'll socialize with people all they want, but they can socialize with me, not with this person they wish I would become. And I don't think I'm strange at all for feeling this. Picture every white haired introvert you've ever met. Yeah, my hair is turning white. It's time.

    As is said in Maddy's sig, I appreciate the concern, but I'm not nearly the hermit I'd like to be. Until then, these precious extroverts are just going to have to deal with having an unapologetic introvert around for as long as they continue to insist on her presence.
    Last edited by Sistamatic; 12-08-2016 at 03:38 AM.
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

    I'm not avoiding socializing I'm helping socializing avoid me! --MoneyJungle

  6. #26
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Leak View Post
    TV seems way different than real life to me. They point the camera directly at what you're supposed to be looking at on TV, and you get to see other people's reactions. Plus they add music cues and stuff that lead you on. There's none of that IRL. It's confusing IRL.
    fair points. It probably helps to just be a people watcher in general...which is something I definitely developed a habit of in my quest to be a great artist(once again, not a skill that I didn't have to learn).
    ...but I'm not sure about the whole advantage of the camera pointing where you're supposed to be looking. The general direction of the person who is expressing is usually sufficient...but if that's not specific enough, just pay attention to the face. Also, if you feel like you missed something, or that something isn't clear, ask for clarification. "I'm not great at reading faces" is a perfectly acceptable buffer for such a clarification-seeking question, too. No need to not be yourself...
    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

  7. #27
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
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    @Sistamatic
    In my assessment, you seem to have the skill set. Socializing isn't the problem for you. It's the socializing circumstances that suck. You have to dress up, spend money and do a whole bunch of accessory obligations that really have nothing to do with socializing, and everything to do with status and politicking. It isn't just about preference, the circumstances you're describing are morally objectionable. I mean, I'm pretty comfortable showing up in jeans and a t-shirt to every circumstance in my life, and not accepting any shame over whether that's appropriate attire or not. I don't have any status or power on the line that's being risked, though.
    I expect that if you were plunked in a truly randomized cluster of different people, you'd get along just fine, with none of the exhausting effects. You seem exhausted for the reason I described: resistance/drag, not lack of skills(extroversion/social skills are not hard to acquire--you have them already). Your resistance is against the dress code; the religious judgmentalism; etc.
    Put a seasoned social extrovert in the same circumstances who is an atheist who also dislikes the stupid dress code and they will find those circumstances exhausting, too...and they'd probably hit the self-destruct button on their livelihood. Your circumstance isn't about extroversion itself being exhausting...it's about really lame circumstances.

    Going back to the OP, he's talking about relationship woes, and being inside himself too much. He needs to develop his E(and S, F, and J, probably). It isn't just a crappy circumstance where there are totally arbitrary expectations. He's in a relationship that's 3 years running...and you can't just hide in your mental cubicle 99% of the time and call the rest a relationship. Introverts who are too deep inside themselves can't even maintain a relationship with another person who is just like them.
    If someone wants to be in a relationship, then asking them to develop some E isn't like demanding that they use a skill that they hate using...it's just asking them to...relate.

    By my assessment, I can't see that you have any shortcomings when it comes to extroversion or socializing...and I wouldn't demand that you do any of the stuff that you feel obliged to do. None of that is what extroversion and socializing is about. It's like suggesting that introversion = depression. It's just a crappy circumstance. I have compassion. Depression is exhausting for introverts, just as it is for extroverts. Morally questionable social obligations are tiring for introverts and extroverts just the same, too.
    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

  8. #28
    non-canonical Light Leak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robcore View Post
    fair points. It probably helps to just be a people watcher in general...which is something I definitely developed a habit of in my quest to be a great artist(once again, not a skill that I didn't have to learn).
    ...but I'm not sure about the whole advantage of the camera pointing where you're supposed to be looking. The general direction of the person who is expressing is usually sufficient...but if that's not specific enough, just pay attention to the face. Also, if you feel like you missed something, or that something isn't clear, ask for clarification. "I'm not great at reading faces" is a perfectly acceptable buffer for such a clarification-seeking question, too. No need to not be yourself...
    With the camera sometimes they show closeups of hands like clenched fists or fidgeting, or shift the focus to draw your attention to something that isn't always the face.

    As far as asking if I think I've missed something. I don't think I have a lot of times. Even when I do think I may have missed something it's my experience that people say different things than they actually mean a lot of times and if I ask for clarification they clarification is just going to be the thing that they already told me - not the thing that they actually mean. But I get in trouble because I somehow should have known what they meant. It's like this game that I keep losing and now I'm not even interested in playing anymore. I just want the cheat code that lets me win.

  9. #29
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Leak View Post
    With the camera sometimes they show closeups of hands like clenched fists or fidgeting, or shift the focus to draw your attention to something that isn't always the face.

    As far as asking if I think I've missed something. I don't think I have a lot of times. Even when I do think I may have missed something it's my experience that people say different things than they actually mean a lot of times and if I ask for clarification they clarification is just going to be the thing that they already told me - not the thing that they actually mean. But I get in trouble because I somehow should have known what they meant. It's like this game that I keep losing and now I'm not even interested in playing anymore. I just want the cheat code that lets me win.
    Well, cut yourself some slack. It sounds to me like the shortcoming lies in the others if they are being dishonest when posed with an honest question. Don't presume to be the poorer communicator.
    An extrovert with no introvert-skills is not self-aware enough to relate effectively, just like an introvert with no extrovert-skills is going to be out of touch with reality.
    Even when you get comfortable doing the extrovert thing, it doesn't mean other people will cease to be idiots, lol.
    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

  10. #30
    Scobblelotcher Sistamatic's Avatar
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    @Robcore
    Even the ridiculous expensive an annoying events aside, i'm still at my best when I'm home by myself. This doesn't mean I shouldn't develop my E side and attempt to make the best of situations I have no control over, but it does mean I will not go as far or be as happy if I do not give my introversion what it needs. Introverts are too often made to feel as if there is something wrong with the way they are or that being introverted means you can't get along with people. Introverts can relate without tapping into some hidden extroverted superpower, we just can't do it all the time. I am quite gregarious when I connect with someone, and I'm quite capable of it. I just have to be careful not to give them the idea that I am available for that level of interaction on demand or for large blocks of time. Sometimes an E can really get excited about a connection and want more and more and more. It's hard to let them know that's not doable without them taking it personally.

    When I'm around people, they take up so much of my processing power that I don't get to have any left for me. I can't take that for very long even when I'm having a great time. I hate overnight guests because I can't let go when there is company over, even if it's my favorite person in the world. If someone comes to stay with me for three days, that's three days that I can't write, can't edit, can't film, can't really do any of the things I do until everyone finally goes to bed. On normal days I sleep until 1PM, work with my coauthor from 2-5, get errand running and crap that one needs other people and businesses to be awake for done by about 8, hang with the husband til about 10 or so, and then I get my work done after everyone goes to bed. I usually go to sleep after sunrise. That's my most productive time schedule and it has everything to do with the hours when I'm least likely to be interrupted. Someone walks into my office in the middle of writing and says, "Whatcha doin?" I may never get back to my train of thought. My thought process is a glass globe and "whatcha doin?" is a 50 pound sledge hammer.

    The 40k players are laid back and awesome. My kind of people. They walk by my office every time they go to the restroom, and they are loud and boisterous and even with my door closed, the fact that there are all these potential interactors on the other side of the door harms my ability to focus. I have to be realistic about how much work I can get done when they are here, and I don't mind except when it's just one of 5 social engagements for the week. It seems like there is something almost every god damned day. Plus there are all these things I have to reverse my sleep schedule for all the time...like tomorrow morning's dentist appointment, and every time someone decides to come visit.

    I cope, but it isn't free. I can't just develop my E skills and have it magically have no effect on my day any more than I can declare I'm a multitasker and then safely text and drive. I am the worst multitasker on the planet. It's a reality that I have to take into account if I am planning on a life without wrapping cars around trees. And I have to insist on a lot of solitude if I'm planning on being a writer. My writing really starts gaining momentum if I have 2 or three days without significant social requirements. If I have 5 or 6 days, I start getting about 10x as much done per day as I do on day 1. Of course that rarely happens. I have an obsession based productivity that can become pretty epic and wonderful, but it has been a very long time since I was permitted to fully immerse because of the day to day needs of the humans around me...it's really a shame. If I win the lottery I'm going to buy a house across the street or something and put my office there... maybe get clapper activated steel door and window covers. (clap clap...BOOOooom...not so much as a mote of light gets in. Yay.) Then I'll be nearly the hermit I want to be. Just kidding. Sort of. Gods, the things I could do if I could just be permitted to shut out the world for four or five days at a time. I'm required to shut myself out of my own world for that long at least 5 times a year for the sake of extroverted crap...it's only fair, right? I'd never get away with it. I can never have that again. I gave that ability up when I got married.

    Anyway, I'm rambling now. My overarching point is that when dating someone with extroverted needs, there definitely needs to be compromise, but you shouldn't lie to yourself or your partner and lead them to believe that you'll one day be able to be as extroverted as their hearts desire if only you just work on it enough. That's not how it works. Working on your E doesn't make you an extrovert, it just gives you tools you can use when you need them. The I partner's need for space and privacy is every bit as important as the E partner's need for interaction. If an I dates an E, negotiations are necessary, and those negotiations should never start with "The introvert needs to become more extroverted." That's not healthy.
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

    I'm not avoiding socializing I'm helping socializing avoid me! --MoneyJungle

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