Not INTP or just not me?

[ACow]

I'm curious why you think why not?
Or to be more specific, do you think it's uncivilised to do that?

Because its helping yourself to things under which the social contract are deemed not yours, and its presumably neither a political statement nor an emergency.
And it additionally suggests you have a lack of impulse control, which is like indicator number one that you will forever be a dirty chav/bogan/pleb/prole/insert-classist-cultural-insult-here.

[Utisz]

Because its helping yourself to things under which the social contract are deemed not yours, and its presumably neither a political statement nor an emergency.

It's kinda like a mortgage though maybe? Except like the credit is a twix rather than a house.

(Not sure if twix is a good reference ... do they have those in other places? :/)

And it additionally suggests you have a lack of impulse control, which is like indicator number one that you will forever be a dirty chav/bogan/pleb/prole/insert-classist-cultural-insult-here.

But what if you had planned to eat a twix while shopping, like it was premeditated, like you had it on the list and everything?

[Lurker]

What's the difference? Even my mom does it. As long as you pay in the end -- which we do, of course -- I don't see that it matters

[Obfuscate]

Like if I'm in a taxi and the driver leaves their indicator on even though they're not actually gonna turn any time soon and it continues and continues and continues and continues and continues and the slight irritation builds and builds and builds and builds and builds and builds and builds and builds but I still cannot summon the chutzpah to tell them to turn the fucking thing off.

Not INTP or just not me?

i would say something like this (as soon as i was bothered): "what route are you taking? that turn signal has been on a long time and it made me curious if you were planning to turn soon..."

post script:

in fact, i have done this precise thing...

[Madrigal]

I've seen it done back when I used to go to supermarkets. Now I only go to Chinese minimarkets and nobody would dare to do that there.

I dunno why I frown on it, I'd approve of outright stealing from them because that's what these huge chains deserve, but eating the food on the way to the cash register as if you were in your living room... I'd lock these people up.

[Limey]

Supermarkets are filthy. The handles of carts and baskets are vectors to go human centipede with the entire community. I have and would never eat while walking around a grocery store. That's disgusting.

[Mike]

Ah but practicing self control is the means, not the ends, right?

Maybe put another way, like societal norms change, like now it's okay in the US for black people and white people to sit beside each other on a bus, and that's now considered civilised.
So the question would be: do you think the notion of being civilised is fluid and a reflection of the times (like societal norms) or that it's something more fixed?
If so, would you consider civilisation to be more civilised than, say, the 50's?

I think what's civilized is primarily fluid because what's considered normal and what's considered disgusting change over time and place. However, there is some degree of absoluteness and universality to the extent that how civilized you are is measured by how considerate you are of others. For instance, if you're able bodied, giving your seat to some elderly person clearly struggling would always be the civilized thing to do. On the other hand, a man giving up his seat for a woman is no longer the norm and expectation of a civilized man. In prior eras women were treated as the weaker sex. Objectively men are not any better equipped to stand than women. So that mark of being civilized was fluid. However, I can't say that change in norms made us more civilized. I tend to think it made us progressively less civilized than in the 50's. As men aren't alert to giving up their seat for a woman I think they're generally less alert to giving up their seat for anybody. I wasn't around in the 50s but I did take public transportation as a kid as early as the 70's and my impression is that it has grown progressively to be more every man and women for himself (less civilized.) That sinking Italian cruise ship a few years ago, with the crew saving themselves first, comes to mind. Actually these days I've seen women be quicker to give up their seat for an elderly person. But maybe I'm just stuck in my time with this notion that there's an absolute timeless measure of "civilized." Maybe in the more civilized future people who have passed peak productiveness will be euthanized before becoming decrepit and needing anybody else's seat.

Or perhaps, would you not consider breaking/questioning some societal norms as a potential bridge to the civilisation of the future?

I can see that. A good start would be to break the practice of holding the door open when a person is so far way that they feel they need to hurry up their pace so as not to keep you hanging.

[ACow]

It's kinda like a mortgage though maybe? Except like the credit is a twix rather than a house.

(Not sure if twix is a good reference ... do they have those in other places? :/)

But what if you had planned to eat a twix while shopping, like it was premeditated, like you had it on the list and everything?

We understand twix, but the americans might need a bit of hand holding :P

Anyway...a little story time...

Here we have a public transport system. To ride a tram, you put money on your transport card or buy an unlimited pass for a period of time. You tap on to a card reader in the tram with your card when you get on the vehicle and you tap off when you disembark and the requisite monies are deducted from your balance if you're not using one of the unlimited passes.

Inspectors roam the network and can fine you if you're traveling on the vehicle without a valid pass (unlimited or a money pass that has been tapped on).

There's a certain type of rider: one who carries a pass with them with a bit of money and doesn't tap on or off. When they're caught by the inspector riding for a while without tapping, they always prostrate loudly and put on a big show: "Oh, I took my seat/forgot, but I swear I was going to tap on, honestly! You can't do this to me!". They do this because they believe they can ride the system for free and just not tap on or off if they think there's no inspectors on board.

Now, I'm not psychic. I don't know. Maybe they really were going to tap on, and maybe they weren't. The point is they're generally a bunch of anti-social tools fucking the system up for everyone by getting on the public transport and not validating their ticket. Their actions are putting everyone else into this inconvenient state of anti-socialness and possible conflict and free-riding because they've initiated an ambiguous event where they've broken the rules. Sure, MAYBE they would actually pay the fare three stops down the line, maybe they forgot, but a civilized person, operating in a society and if they had a conscious choice in the matter, wouldn't do it.

So by analogy, one goes and just starts eating and drinking shit as they're walking through a supermarket that they haven't paid for: "Oh, but I was totally going to pay for it". Well none of us know that, and now you've started the ball rolling on some shit and potential social conflict that was totally needless if you just restrained yourself for a few minutes until after you paid for it and it actually became yours.

Obvious exceptions apply in different cultures or whereby it is culturally understood that this is how that particular form of commerce in that particular society operates (eating a grape in the fresh fruit section is generally acceptable), but either way in the western context, you're signalling that you're too daft to pick up on the polite rules of society, you don't care about them, or you're totally unable to restrain yourself...

[synagogue]

Supermarkets are filthy. The handles of carts and baskets are vectors to go human centipede with the entire community. I have and would never eat while walking around a grocery store. That's disgusting.

Wow.

Nevermind how gross this was, to read. You're absolutely right. Thanks.

I live in Alabama (USA), though, and I don't think I can change anything, as a result of your little "revelation" here. If my neighbor has it, then dammit, I have it.

[Utisz]

I just remembered I did it with a drink twice. One time it was carbonated and I shook it by accident and everyone saw what I was doing when it sprayed all over me.

How do you shake a drink by accident? (resisting michael j. fox joke because it's in bad taste but not managing to resist the resisting.)

With the tissues, my nose was running pretty badly and the line was slow and it was just National Wholesale Liquidators.

I think what you mean to say is ...

Once upon a time, in the land of National Wholesale Liquidators, there was shopping a man, who had a very runny nose ...

What's the difference? Even my mom does it. As long as you pay in the end -- which we do, of course -- I don't see that it matters

I know I hear ya, and that's the thing really. Like I don't know why it's such a problem, but I wouldn't do it myself, because ... I don't even know why, you know!

Do you do it too? I want to get to know that side, like are there certain products it's okay to do it with? Like an apple I guess is a faux pas unless you've weighted it before or something or generalising, anything without a barcode, or anything from the hygiene aisle ...

i would say something like this (as soon as i was bothered): "what route are you taking? that turn signal has been on a long time and it made me curious if you were planning to turn soon..."

post script:

in fact, i have done this precise thing...

I couldn't bring myself to say that either! Like actually it would be harder for me to say that than to just say turn the indicator off, except that I don't know the spanish for indicator, but I would guess it's just indicador in a Spanish accent, which works at least like 20% of the time.

I've seen it done back when I used to go to supermarkets.

Oh oh, you said the 's' word. Now you're gonna trigger stuck. Way ta go Madrigal.

Now I only go to Chinese minimarkets and nobody would dare to do that there.

Well it's only a minimarket like you're gonna get hungry shopping in a minimarket. That would be like taking a chocolate bar at a quiosco and eating it while looking at the selection of seven different types of chocolate bar.

I dunno why I frown on it, I'd approve of outright stealing from them because that's what these huge chains deserve, but eating the food on the way to the cash register as if you were in your living room... I'd lock these people up.

DAMN RIGHT i mean hmm ... I should stop reading posts in your voice it creates a blind spot.

So you wanna lock up Lurker's mom?

Supermarkets are filthy. The handles of carts and baskets are vectors to go human centipede with the entire community. I have and would never eat while walking around a grocery store. That's disgusting.

I think I got asthma just reading this post thanks Limey.

I think what's civilized is primarily fluid because what's considered normal and what's considered disgusting change over time and place. However, there is some degree of absoluteness and universality to the extent that how civilized you are is measured by how considerate you are of others. For instance, if you're able bodied, giving your seat to some elderly person clearly struggling would always be the civilized thing to do. On the other hand, a man giving up his seat for a woman is no longer the norm and expectation of a civilized man. In prior eras women were treated as the weaker sex. Objectively men are not any better equipped to stand than women. So that mark of being civilized was fluid. However, I can't say that change in norms made us more civilized. I tend to think it made us progressively less civilized than in the 50's. As men aren't alert to giving up their seat for a woman I think they're generally less alert to giving up their seat for anybody. I wasn't around in the 50s but I did take public transportation as a kid as early as the 70's and my impression is that it has grown progressively to be more every man and women for himself (less civilized.) That sinking Italian cruise ship a few years ago, with the crew saving themselves first, comes to mind. Actually these days I've seen women be quicker to give up their seat for an elderly person. But maybe I'm just stuck in my time with this notion that there's an absolute timeless measure of "civilized." Maybe in the more civilized future people who have passed peak productiveness will be euthanized before becoming decrepit and needing anybody else's seat.

I guess the follow up then is if you consider it inconsiderate to eat stuff while shoppping?

I'm still sorta traditional that way, like in the metro here I always just stand even if there's seats available, like I don't mind standing but I do mind sitting and wondering who I should or should not give up my seat for, like it's just less tiring to stand. But also I'm sorta happy to stand if others wanna sit.

I can see that. A good start would be to break the practice of holding the door open when a person is so far way that they feel they need to hurry up their pace so as not to keep you hanging.

Oh I hear ya, that's a tricky one like juding the distance. I'm one of those people who holds the door open and also hurries if the door is held open. It's like a chinese finger trap of social etiquette like you have to relax both sides to escape the bind.

We understand twix, but the americans might need a bit of hand holding :P

Yeah, I mean in terms of ex British colonies, look at us, we're doing okay, right? Where did it all go wrong for them?

Anyway...a little story time...

Here we have a public transport system. To ride a tram, you put money on your transport card or buy an unlimited pass for a period of time. You tap on to a card reader in the tram with your card when you get on the vehicle and you tap off when you disembark and the requisite monies are deducted from your balance if you're not using one of the unlimited passes.

Inspectors roam the network and can fine you if you're traveling on the vehicle without a valid pass (unlimited or a money pass that has been tapped on).

There's a certain type of rider: one who carries a pass with them with a bit of money and doesn't tap on or off. When they're caught by the inspector riding for a while without tapping, they always prostrate loudly and put on a big show: "Oh, I took my seat/forgot, but I swear I was going to tap on, honestly! You can't do this to me!". They do this because they believe they can ride the system for free and just not tap on or off if they think there's no inspectors on board.

Now, I'm not psychic. I don't know. Maybe they really were going to tap on, and maybe they weren't. The point is they're generally a bunch of anti-social tools fucking the system up for everyone by getting on the public transport and not validating their ticket. Their actions are putting everyone else into this inconvenient state of anti-socialness and possible conflict and free-riding because they've initiated an ambiguous event where they've broken the rules. Sure, MAYBE they would actually pay the fare three stops down the line, maybe they forgot, but a civilized person, operating in a society and if they had a conscious choice in the matter, wouldn't do it.

So by analogy, one goes and just starts eating and drinking shit as they're walking through a supermarket that they haven't paid for: "Oh, but I was totally going to pay for it". Well none of us know that, and now you've started the ball rolling on some shit and potential social conflict that was totally needless if you just restrained yourself for a few minutes until after you paid for it and it actually became yours.

Obvious exceptions apply in different cultures or whereby it is culturally understood that this is how that particular form of commerce in that particular society operates (eating a grape in the fresh fruit section is generally acceptable), but either way in the western context, you're signalling that you're too daft to pick up on the polite rules of society, you don't care about them, or you're totally unable to restrain yourself...

Ah, so it boils down to the question of whether or not they're going to pay or not? I see them as two separate issues though, like it would not be all that hard to just shoplift a twix (folks from the u.s. can replace twix with a mars bar without changing the essential point) ... actually the easiest way would be to just shoplift it directly rather than eating it first and then shoplifting the wrapper, though I get the point that if everyone were to eat twixes while shopping, then finding the ones who stick the wrapper in their pocket and don't pay would be tougher. Yeah, it's a more general issue I guess, like the big chains have this refined to a cost benefit analysis and they realise that making a fuss about such behaviour would cost them more than the odd wrapper-pocketer. But essentially I guess what you're saying is that it's the terrorists fault that the NSA is reading all our gmails?