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Thread: Enneagram 8w7 & Tri-types

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    Enneagram 8w7 & Tri-types

    My type. I previously compiled a resource thread, so I thought I'd bring it over here with me.

    I think it's important to note that the majority of type Eight descriptions fail to represent the truly introverted Eight.

    Type Eight: The Challenger
    (Also known as “The Survivalist”)
    by Timeless

    Quick Facts about Type Eight:

    Holy Idea: Innocence/Truth
    Vice: Lust
    Virtue: Magnamity
    Enneagram Triad: Body (Associated Emotion: Anger)
    Hornevian Triad: Aggressive
    Harmonic Triad: Reactive
    Basic Drive: Survival
    Basic Fear: Being harmed or controlled
    Basic Desire: To be independent and in control
    Freudian Association: Id (Subconscious gratification drive)

    Type Eight Description:

    Animalistic “laws of nature” are coded into the human psyche, particularly in the subconscious Id, which is the seat of many primal impulses. These laws of nature hold that the strong survive and the weak perish, and to survive, one must always be at the top of the food chain.

    The foundation of a Type Eight personality is a strong connection to these “laws of nature.” From a Freudian perspective, this is because the Type Eight spends a large part of their mental energy on satisfying certain survival impulses of the Id. From the perspective of cognitive behavioral psychology, a Type Eight believes (for whatever reason, perhaps early development) that the primal survival need is their most treasured asset.

    In Enneagram theory, each type has a Holy Idea from which all other traits flow. Type Eight’s “Holy Ideas” are Truth and Innocence. The Holy Idea determines which type a person ultimately grows into; if they are particularly in-tune with the notion of innocence, over time they develop a delusion that no one is innocent, thus justifying cutthroat behavior. It's every man for themselves in the Eight's world.

    This foundation ensures that the Eight is within the body triad. The body triad is focused on all the minutiae regarding where “I” end and “You” begin. Conflict is a necessary part of that. For the Eight, it’s themselves against the world. There is a clear border between the Eight and the rest of the world, and that border must be protected. 8w9 and 8w7 protect that border in different ways, but that’s discussed later in this article.

    The Type Eight basic drive is to survive and the basic fear is to be harmed or controlled. After all, to be controlled is to essentially be an animal caught in a trap, waiting for someone to come along and finish the job. For that reason, Eights will resist almost any attempt to control them. (Weak attempts may fall off the radar as something not worth dealing with.)

    But as a society, we do not live in the world of the Id. Society doesn’t allow us to set out bear traps for other people (well, most societies) and so the behaviors of the Eight are channeled into other activities. This is why Eights tend to gravitate toward positions of power, particularly in business or social settings. Even if the position has no apparent survival value, the subconscious drive to control (lest the Eight be controlled themselves) drives them to become the authority in a situation.

    Harkening back to the animalistic nature of the Id, the Type Eight relies on intuitive action (gut reactions, not MBTI intuitiveness) to operate. There’s no time to think it out when you’re in the middle of a crossfire on the battlefield, so an Eight will naturally go with their first reaction. This is another reason why Type Eight is in the Body Triad, not the Head Triad. For example, while Type Five will plan things out while Type Eight will just do it.

    The vice of Type Eight is lust. But not necessarily sexual lust; this can encompass the desire for any number of things, such as food or money. You can think of a “vice”, at least in the context of the Enneagram, as representing an illusory means of pursuing the basic drive. For Type Eights, the basic drive is survival. Acting in a lusty way gives the illusion of survival; consuming mass amounts of food or possessing great wealth gives, at least temporarily, the appearance that they are winning the battle for survival. This is a major motivation for Type Eight; they want to consume and expand their control. This gives Type Eights an ego that is generally unmatched in the Enneagram. They like to see themselves as powerful, influential and self-sufficient.

    Morality wise, a Type Eight would say they have integrity instead of a strong moral code. They would likely view strong moral codes as weak if they are too out of touch with reality. Morality is a core superego function and as an id type, a Type Eight would have a hard time internalizing that.

    The virtue of Eight is magnanimity, which represents judicious use of their power. As they gain a deeper understanding of themselves, they realize that there is a right time and a wrong time for their aggression. This helps free them from their fundamental delusion that they must always be expanding their realm of power; as Daniel Webster once said, “Liberty consists in wholesome restraint.” With that restraint, Eights realize their liberty.

    Other descriptions from links now defunct:

    Riso and Hudson's Overview "The Challenger"
    It is difficult to describe power without roaming into ambiguous matters—into a consideration of leadership, authority, will, courage, self-reliance, and destructiveness. What is the difference between willfulness and self-assertion, for example? "Will" can be thought of as good or bad, although more by its use than by what it is. It is difficult to say what gives a person authority or makes someone a particularly able leader. Is it proper to call the use of power with which we agree healthy, while condemning its use by those with whom we disagree? We cannot possibly begin to do justice to the complexities of power here, although they will, of course, be touched on because this chapter concerns itself with the personality type which most exemplifies power. In the personality type Eight, we see courage, will, self-reliance, leadership, authority, self-assertion—and the dark side of power, the ability to destroy what power has created.

    Palmer's Description "The Dominator"
    Enneagram type 8s are a force to be reckoned with. They are strong and independent and resist being controlled by anyone. As Sandra Maitri writes in her book, The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram: Nine Faces of the Soul, Eights have a “need to be against.” Their psyches tell them they need to be strong so no one messes with them. There is a grounded, big, palpable, bodily energy to them. They often seem bigger than they actually are.'s Description
    People of enneatype Eight are essentially unwilling to be controlled, either by others or by their circumstances; they fully intend to be masters of their fate, to "take charge," to do whatever needs to be done. Eights are competitive, strong willed, decisive, expansive, practical, and tough minded. Eights typically have an enormous amount of energy and frequently have powerful physical appetites. There is an unapologetically expansive quality to the physical presence of the type Eight personality. Eights generally don't have to announce their presence for others to know they are there. The central problem for individuals of enneatype Eight is that the need to avoid being controlled can manifest in the need to control, the need to be "in charge," the compulsion to dominate. This can lead to all sorts of practical difficulties, as the world is not always liable to conform to the dictates of the Eight's will, but the deeper problem for the Eight is that the need to avoid any semblance of being controlled can rob the Eight of the fluidity, receptivity and acceptance that is generally necessary to live a full, balanced and truly happy life.

    Myers-Briggs Equivalents
    More Common:
    ESTJ "The Enforcer" - Use structured activity to get self and others to a get job done.
    ENTJ "The Leader" - Use analysis and strategy to use resources to meet a challenge.
    INTJ "The Free-Thinker" - Insightful, quick individualists who trust their own vision.

    Quite Common:
    ESTP "The Adventurer" - Active, pragmatic, outgoing, fun, realistic accomplishers.
    ENTP "The Innovator" - Adaptable, innovative, freeing self from structure for action

    8w7 - Seeking Power and Stimulation
    Awakened Eights with a 7 wing are often expansive, and powerful. Gregarious and generous, they may display a cheerful bravado. Can be forceful but with a light touch, funny. Often have a sense of humor about themselves. Generally more extroverted, ambitious and materialistic. May talk loud and be sociable partygoers. Sometimes driven to bring the new into being. Can be visionary, idealistic, enterprising. Willing to take risks. May think more clearly than Eights with a 9 wing; 7 wing brings an intellectual capacity. When more entranced, aggression combines with gluttony to form an almost virulent tendency to addiction. Many entranced Eights with a 7 wing have had drug and alcohol problems or tensions around addiction. Prone to temperamental ups and downs - can be moody, egocentric, quick to anger. Tendency to court chaos, inflate themselves narcissistically. Some are ruthlessly materialistic. Can use people up, suck them dry. Maybe be explosive or violent, prone to distorted overreaction.

    8w9 - Seeking Power and Peace
    Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano. Slow to erupt but when they do it's sudden and explosive. When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions. If very unhealthy, they can be mean without remorse or aggressive in the service of stupid ends. Paranoid plotting, muddled thinking, moral laziness. Can be vengeful in ill-conceived ways, abuse those they love, don't know when to quit.

    Type Eight: The Challenger
    (Also known as “The Survivalist”)
    by Timeless

    Continued excerpts ...

    Growth Arrow to Type Two:
    Type Eight grows in the direction of Type Two, even though the sentimental and helpful qualities of Type Two could compromise Type Eight’s survival. One of the challenges of the Enneagram consists of identifying the best way to integrate these growth characteristics in a sustainable manner. As a Type Eight grows, they begin to push against the limits imposed upon them by the Body Triad. The bright line that used to separate them from others begins to blur and the Type Eight starts to internalize the needs of others. In effect, they begin to see others as an extension of the self. But this growth arrow has limitations. An Eight does not become a Two, but rather, can gain (somewhat superficial) aspects of a Two. Survival remains the inherent focus of an Eight, and so protection of others is often focused primarily on the survival and physical well-being of others. An Eight, even in a strong growth state, may still see some matters (such as simply being “upset”) as essentially trivial because it does not affect survival value. On the other hand, matters such as the invasion of physical space and deception are likely to be hot button issues for an Eight.

    Stress Arrow to Type Five:
    On the other hand, stress arrows tend to indicate a retreat position. An Eight normally relies on intuitive action; but not in the MBTI sense. In this case, intuitive action refers to acting on “gut reactions” and planning is less common. It is normally important for a Type Eight to maintain their momentum. However, if for some reason they are unable to maintain this momentum, they may become secretive and isolated like a Type Five. In that case, intuitive action is replaced by plotting and suspicion. A severely stressed Eight can therefore appear like a Type Five.

    Timeless quote on INTP 8s:
    Unfortunately, most MBTI INTP descriptions sound like they're talking about INTP 5s. I think the INTP 8 is something much different.
    MBTI/JCF describes thought processes while Enneagram describes motivations. INTP, being Ti/Ne, is about making fine distinctions (Ti) between theoretical possibilities (Ne). Type 8 is about competitiveness and individuality. So when you combine those two, you get a type that employs their theoretical knowledge in a practical way.

    INTP 8s, in general, are probably more down-to-earth than other INTP type combinations. I've noticed that, for example, competency INTPs (Types 5, 1, and 3) have a tendency to want to show off their smarts while INTP 8s are less concerned with that. In my experience, Type 8 INTPs aren't the bookish INTP 5 stereotype. They tend to be pretty practical and matter-of-fact, and more goal oriented than competency oriented

    Timeless on Eights and Innocence:
    Innocence, in its most pure and broadest definition, means being unacquainted with evil. It doesn't necessarily entail ignorance. I suppose it could, but I see it as being a stranger to doing wrong.
    Eights are straight-shooters who usually don't appreciate swindling or telling falsehoods. Unhealthy eights might, but healthy eights just want to live their lives and be magnanimous to those around them, and in turn, those around them would deal fairly and speak in truth. But we don't live in that kind of world, and those sorts of innocent relationships aren't common. Everyone's a potential competitor or menace because, hey, it's a dog-eat-dog world instead of the world of truth and fair dealing that we want it to be. So while we shoot straight and talk the truth, we're rough with people, because that's just how it is. You have to survive somehow.

    So, 8w9s are more likely to go it alone, and 8w7s are more likely to push when they sense deceptions. Essentially the 8w9 attitude is, "You're not being straight with me, so go haul off, I don't need you" while the 8w7 is "You're not being straight with me so I'll make you be straight with me."
    Either way, what the Eight is actually saying is they want the kind of guileless interpersonal relationships associated with the general concept of innocence.

    Quoting Berlin:
    Eights mistreat themselves unconsciously by denying their vulnerability, (to bury the person inside was the wording of another 8). Suppression of innocence, like the need of help or weak feelings by lust/excess driven by self-will because of a fear in showing vulnerability. I'm mostly too unconscious, so I cannot talk about myself, or my feelings etc. It's very important in my life that I do what I wanna do.. so I'm independent, assertive, I'm in charge, in control etc. I don't need your help, I'll do it my way.

    Like Nines, Eights have an issue with an ego - because they suppress their deepest needs (they suppress their innocence in order to hide vulnerability) and they act unconsciously.. Nines numb themselves and Eights will use their lust to become oblivious. It's either full power, excess or nothing. On or off. Eights are driven by lust and approach life offensively. At their best they turn into humans, larger than life. If that doesn't work Eights withdraw like Fives, they disappear.

    Eights take revenge on the world because they believe they have to suppress their innocence (being vulnerable, weak, in need of help, no guilty enemies to fight etc). If you mess with an Eight it's often a matter of justice to the Eight to fight you and punish you. The world has to pay for my innocence (being unacquainted with evil) , I've sold to the devil in order to be hard or "strong".

    Anger is the emotional motor of the ego revenge. Eights express their anger more openly than any other type. Anger is a source of energy.
    Its been a source of energy my whole life, and it's the main thing I have to control within my psyche. Anger is also a feeling I show instead of feeling sad ,hurt, or disappointed, etc. Because anger doesn't look or feel vulnerable like "weak" feelings. It covers other feelings. Its an universal feeling that replaces all other "negative" feelings. Main feelings: angry or happy.

    Quoting Entropic:
    I would say it's more that the type 8 comes to believe that the world itself is simply not a good place to be in and order to survive one needs to become as bad as the world is. Since everyone is trying to survive, it means everyone will be as bad. You can't be good in order to get by. I think conflict is a little over-stated in your article. Similarly, 8 feels estranged from innocence, thinking that it is something that they gave up on in order to survive. You cannot survive and be innocent at the same time. Hence some authors may refer to the 8 as having a sense of longing or lack within themselves that is shared with type 4 and 5.

    Quoting Entropic:
    'The Eight relies on lust to give the illusion of survival'
    I would say it's more a sense of alive-ness in order to separate from its sense of deadness or numbness.

    Whether introversion or extroversion have any bearing on our Enneatypes remains to be seen, however according to those proponents of the idea of 'Embodiment' , this is not the case.

    It is thought by some that the Enneagram & subsequent sub-types are not just learned but are coping mechanisms adopted early in youth and chosen unconsciously by the individual at such time as when the great trauma associated with ‘embodiment’ is experienced:

    The process of embodiment is, in part, experienced as traumatic to a soul that previously felt totally free and infinite. In the illusion of duality, we now identify with our finite physical form, a form we experience as “limited.” From the perspective of duality and limited finite form, fear of death can exist and escalate to an existential terror of non-existence. What our limited form calls “non-existence” and spends all of its time and energy trying to avoid, is, in fact, the infinite Unity Consciousness which is Essence. We have called our True Self “non-existence” rather than its true name, “Essence.”

    This mistake is the root of all our difficulties. In an effort to avoid the existential anxiety of non-existence, we choose to take on an identity, believing that if we have an identity, we must exist, and we must matter. To put it differently, we choose to protect ourselves by covering over our truest, most beloved self with an obscuring identity because part of us believes if we were this truest self we would be annihilated – cease to exist. As is the case with all such choices, it is made while we are traumatized, and so the part of us that makes the seemingly best choice at that time is no longer available to us.

    Therefore, we come to believe that we are the choice, the limited identity, even when we know it profoundly limits us. This limited identity is filtered through our traumatic experience of embodiment. As with all traumas, this results in reversed beliefs, fear of experiencing feelings, and boundary problems, which, when combined, result in negative ways of experiencing ourselves and all life. All of these limited negative identities are obscuring identities that cover over the True Self we wrongly believe is “non- existence.” The fears that arise in the process of embodiment we refer to as Core Fears, what we are most afraid or ashamed to admit about ourselves. They are our most fundamental negative limited identities that protect us from this existential anxiety of non-existence. By becoming aware of, allowing and accepting our Core Fears and all the ways we compensate for them, we can transform them and open the doorway to who we truly are, our Essence.

    Embodiment is not being born again. It’s the completion of the unfinished business of birth. Embodiment is another word for individuation: to become a fully autonomous psyche. To be born is to be torn from a “disembodied” state, floating in the womb, an extension of the mother’s body. The painful trauma of splitting off from the mother’s body is only fully over—healed—when it is relived via the painful trauma of splitting off from the social organism of the group. Autonomy is only possible with autos—self. And self, like life, only comes about through a bloody painful process.

    Only when a Soul is fully embodied does it have an actual existence. Until then, the idea of an individual Soul is only an idea. It’s like a seed in the mulch of human consciousness, or group soul. Existence in the womb is life, but it’s not yet living. Ditto with existence inside the group soul—life, not living. This is true of anybody that hasn’t completed its birth process and become a home for the Soul-psyche. The first birth is physical. The second—birth from above—is psychic. It is when the psyche is born by the body.

    Why there are nine expressions or personifications of this human experience also remains to be seen; I believe the truth of the matter is esoteric in nature; and the understanding of such probably remains best reserved for those of Cabbalistic, or Shamanistic inclinations.


    I read with great interest Susan Rhodes’s astute article “The Missing Body Center (or Making the Invisible Visible).” The problems involved with our culture’s “blindness” to the particular kind of intelligence we see in the “body” or “gut” types (Eight, Nine and One) seem to me real and important, and her analysis is penetrating and useful. Since she especially requested comments on her article from body types, I am offering here my perspective as a One on some of the vital issues she has addressed.

    In the January 1997 issue of Enneagram Monthly I suggested in my article “Jottings from a One’s Journal” that calling the Eight-Nine-One triad the “Instinctual” triad was likely to be more confusing than helpful. I pointed out that consistency of style demanded parallelism with the labels commonly used to describe the other two triads as “Feeling” (Two-Three-Four) and “Thinking” (Five-Six-Seven). While feeling and thinking are basic human faculties, instinct is not. The basic faculty that I believe characterizes the Eight-Nine-One center is will. The “Body” or “Gut” types specialize in “Will,” and the imbalances of this faculty among these three types directly parallel the imbalances of “Feeling” and “Thinking” within the centers with those labels.

    In the Two-Three-Four triad, for example, we see defects of the Feeling faculty: in Two, feeling is directed excessively outward (empathy toward others, with inadequate awareness of the Two’s own feelings); in Three, feeling is deficient in both outward and inward applications (denial of feelings in the service of achieving visible goals); and in Four, feeling is directed excessively inward (self-absorption). We see the same basic pattern in the Five-Six-Seven triad in relation to Thinking: Five focuses thoughts excessively inward (hoarding them, honing them so as to avoid the intrusion of others); Six’s preoccupation with worst-case scenarios creates a deficiency in clear thinking (“I was so scared I couldn’t think straight”); and Seven directs thinking excessively outward (strategically designed to keep the Seven’s options open, so as to avoid the feared boredom and/or frustration).

    If we apply this pattern (excessive outwardness /deficiency/excessive inwardness) to the Eight-Nine-One triad, it doesn’t work well with the labels “Body-based,” “Gut,” or even “Instinct.” But if we substitute the word “Will,” the pattern falls right into place: Eights directing the will excessively outward (trying to impose their will on others); Nines being defective in will (ambivalent, often unable to act because their will is pulled equally in opposite directions); and Ones directing the will excessively inward (preoccupied with self-discipline and deflecting the voice of their Inner Critic)

    You know you're an Eight when -

    Quoting Swordsman of Mana
    - ever since you were a child, you've held a Darwinian and, at times, somewhat Machiavellian view of the world that conflicted severely with the instincts of your limbic brain (forming emotional bonds with people, wanting to believe that there is some sort of justice in the world, being an emotional creature by nature). as a child, this caused you intense emotional discord and internal non-congruence, but, over time, your Darwinian paradigm of reality begins to win out over and "desensitize" your limbic brain's natural responses. over time, your mind becomes similar to a reptilian predator and you feel dead on the inside, probably experiencing feelings of apathy. at this point, the only emotions you're comfortable with being anger, desire for acquisition and a will to survive at all costs.

    - when something, usually a person you're close to, reawakens the natural tendencies of your limbic brain and, during an experience that would make most people feel ecstatic or warm and fuzzy, your first response is feeling strongly uncomfortable. after that, it gets even worse and this uncomfortable yet simultaneously euphoric feeling turns into pain and perhaps more anger and frustration, you may even show unintentional aggression towards this new object of your affection and are probably all around confused about how to handle this situation

    - when, as you get older, you get more and more in touch with your feelings resulting in more, you guessed it, pain. the more in touch you get with your heart, the more you realize how diseased, neglected and stagnated it's become.

    - when, once you begin the long process of healing, it starts to get better. you begin to experience new, foreign emotions that are fulfilling in ways you've never experienced before and even experience a kind of childlike bliss (though childlike might not be the best word to describe it in this instance because you probably weren't very "childlike" even when you were a child)

    What Type Eights are really about -

    Quoting dfoster:
    Claudio Naranjo, the man who brought the Enneagram to modern psychology, the man that most other enneagram writers take after identified the real drive behind Eight's "justice":

    Revenge on the world for wronging the individual at an early age. That is me to a T, the visceral response to "injustice" that 8's have is a response to an old wound. They have been looking for the faceless culprit that screwed up their perfect world. As soon as they see someone doing some "wrong" they attack, not in the sense of "you're unethical" like 1, but "it was you, it was you who's been screwing up my world, now die!" It's very visceral, I used to feel it very strong against any wrong doing like the individual has done it to me although he has never met me. And the offense was against someone else and usually minor. But it doesn't matter, I added up all the sins of the world and put them on his shoulders. Oscar Ichazo, who taught Naranjo the Ennegram named type 8: Ego-Venge. This name is still being used by several Enneagram writers.

    Naranjo's 'Character & Neurosis': Type 8


    1. Core Theory, Nomenclature, and Place in the Enneagram
    2. Antecedents in the Scientic Literature on Character
    3. Trait Structure (Lust, Punitiveness, Rebelliousness, Dominance, Insensitivity, Conning and Cynicism, Exhibitionism (Narcissism), Autonomy, Sensory-motor dominance)
    4. Defense Mechanisms
    5. Etiological and Further Psychodynamic
    6. Existential Psychodynamics


    Ennea-Type VIII: "Sadistic Character and Lust"

    ... Lust is.. a kinship to indolence... an attempt to compensate for a hidden lack of aliveness...

    "Anti social personality disorder"
    "phallic narcissistic"
    "disobedient and defiant"
    "moral anesthesia"

    ... guiltlessness, incapacity of object love, impulsivity, emotional shallowness...concealed sadistic characteristics... exploitative orientation...

    "He is openly arrogant, often rude and offensive, although sometime this is covered with a thin veneer of civil politeness. In subtle and gross ways with or without realizing it, he humiliates others and exploits them. He may use women for the satisfaction of his sexual needs with utter disregard for their feelings....uses people as a means to an end......maintains contacts exclusively on the basis of their serving his needs for stepping stones in his career....utter disregard of others' needs...

    ...contemptuous disregard for others...intimidating others into a subdued appeasement...

    "This absence of sympathy has many causes, lying in his hostility towards others and in his lacking sympathy for himself. But what contributes most to his callousness toward others is the envy of them. It is a bitter envy --not for this for that particular asset, but pervasive--and stems from his feeling excluded from life in general....
    lust may be seen as repressed envy....

    ... to compensate for feelings of guilt, shame and worthlessness evoked by his disregard of others the individual has engaged in a process of guilt denial...

    ... ennea-type VIII character fails to constitute full humanness...

    ...lust, in its impetuous grasping of the tangible, entails an impoverishment of tender qualities and subtlety which results in a loss of wholeness...this reaching, substituted for being, leaves him forever dissatisfied, craving intensity.

    Following quotes from thread: "Naranjo's 'Character & Neurosis': Type 8 Chapter"

    Quoting dfoster:
    Sandra Maitri in her two books:

    (8's lust) Our love for what we desire and fully taking it in - devouring it - are indistinguishable here. Here, we are like a lion stalking our prey... everything and everyone is just food to us....

    ... Eights have a thick layer of callousness and deadness separating them from contact with their vitality. It is as though their soul has become hardened, desensitized.

    His inner powerlessness, helplessness, and vulnerability... are what he considers the core of his weakness... the rest of his life can be seen as an attempt to grapple with this basic sense of culpability and the resulting feeling of guilt...

    He imitates essential strength ... the false strength that characterizes the Eight personality type is static, rigid and inflexible... using the same amount of force for everything he does...

    ...often unaware of the suffering and hurt feelings of others and is inconsiderate, not noticing the effect of his often brusque, blunt, and callous manner upon them.

    Denial also makes it appear to him the that the problem is always outside of himself. The enemy is the other, who seems out to get him, wants to humiliate him, is treating him unjustly..

    He rebuffs responsibility for how he is treated

    Quoting Coburn: - Being in denial about being in denial...
    Not necessarily "in denial." Rather an eight might recognize they have those traits, but percieve them as potential strengths rather than "problems." Think about it this way: an eight sees that one of his problems is becoming closed off when he's hurt. He might think of that as being a potential strength ["if I'm closed off than no one can hurt me"]. It's a pretty twisted point of view, but wholly possible with an eight. That same eight might be able to rationalize why others would see said trait as a bad thing, or why it might be bad for other people, but hold it in a different light when applied to himself.

    It's not a matter of looking at the list of issues and thinking "i'm not like that." It's more about looking at the list and thinking "i've got that...but why is it in the weakness section?"

    Quoting dfoster:
    I used to say to myself "I thought I have gotten past these issues years ago, why am I struggling with them again?" I did not know the cyclic natures of things. These negative feelings like rage and vengeance, bitterness, go away and come back, even thoughts. You'd think you have these brilliant insights to get over you problems then you doubt them 6 months later, then you get over them then the doubts come back 8 months later. Now I stop struggling and just let it be, just like allowing a wave to past through you, knowing they won't last, just like the winter. But knowing the cyclic nature of these feelings allows me to catch myself, because I learn to detect what comes before, what triggers them and then brace myself. A lot of time, they pass with not much damage.

    Quoting n2freedom:
    Most people don't even know the half of what it's like to be an Eight....don't let the smooth taste fool you. As an is a dark and lonely fucking place... This process has been like hello N2Freedom I would like for you to meet the *real* N2Freedom. It has been quite the eye opener to say the least

    Quoting dfoster:
    I know about the anger burn. I don't wish it on anybody. For me I'd feel so consumed with vengeance that my heart actually hurts and my body weakened. It's a debilitating feeling that can last for hours. During that time, you're fucked, you can't do a damn thing, vengeance is the only thing that seems reasonable. It is an actual physiological change, I read that hormones are released in your bloodstream so much that you can't just function normally, all because of some thoughts. I can actually catch myself ahead of the current cycle by remembering what happened in the last cycle.

    You know how when you were a kid, sometimes, you liked to press on a splinter wound just to be reminded how it felt? For me I actually enjoyed the feeling after a while, it' interesting, definitely not boring, better than starring out the window in class. So I was actually indulging in feeling that pain, like I would in drinking.

    So me having an indignant thought about injustice and subsequent feeling of vengeance is like pressing on that old wound and indulging in the vengeance I know I would feel, it's very energizing and empowering. Just like with excessive drinking, you enjoy it initially but then you're in over your head and regretting it. Vengeance is the same thing for me, it feels good initially but in the end, I'm in over my head.

    My theory is at some point in the past, I chose to head down the path of thoughts and feelings that lead to feeling of vengeance because it felt good but after a while it became so automatic that I forgot that I chose it in the first place. Just like an alcoholic, it became a compulsion that I couldn't run away from. I think the key for me is to catch myself when I'm heading down that path (reaching for the bottle). I actually say to myself "you don't have to go here because you know where it's gonna go".

    I think with Eights, choosing to head down the path on anger and vengeance (reaching for the bottle) is better than dealing with tender emotions

    Quoting Animal:
    Lust is about winning, conquering to get it (I'm strong, I won, you're weak ===> sadism). In this way, a sadist can manifest through a kind of masochism because we unconsciously seek out conflict in order to triumph over it, due to the lust issue. If you're seeking out conflict in order to triumph and beat the other person you're a sadist but you still put yourself in a shitty position so you're also a masochist in a twisted way.

    Following quotes from "Why is 8 correlated with Thinking types?"

    Quoting Vajra:
    The MBTI/Enneagram have different foci. All you get by viewing Enneagram descriptions from the JCF/MBTI lens or making these correlations (as RH and Naranjo have both done unfortunately) is a skewed understanding of type.

    It's no wonder that Type 1 descriptions have a Te/Si ish bias, and it's no wonder that 7 descriptions sound Se heavy in some works and Ne-ish in others. Thinking/rationality has absolutely nothing to do with which Enneagram Type a person is. Surely, as everyone knows, 8s have been scientists, politicians and more.

    Rationality and instinctual awareness are not mutually exclusive. Einstein was largely typed a gut type (9), so was Jung. Being a gut type has far broader implications that 'predictability', 'lustiness' and 'following the gut'. It's about setting ego boundaries for the purpose of using their will to affect the world without being affected in-turn. It's about autonomy and preservation of the self.

    Quoting n2freedom:
    I haven't read the other posts. My line of thinking on this is fundamentally the thinking, gut/body, and heart are all intelligence centers. The goal is to integrate them all.
    I don't remember the link but it indicated that 1,8,9 are gut/thinkers who on a subconscious level believe they have no other words they are least connected to their heart center.
    Whereas 5,6,7 are thinking/heart who on a subconscious level believe they have no other words they are least connected to their body center.
    Similarly, 2,3,4 are heart/gut who on a subconscious level believe they have no other words they are least connected to their thinking center.
    I think any type has equal possibility of being intelligent/strategic thinkers and it's not a defining feature for any one enneatype. I think to say that 8 is not a fundamentally rational type is a sweeping generalization at best especially sense the essence of the enneagram is about the core motivations, desires, and fears and how they govern thinking(not to be confused with intelligence) and behavior versus governing cognitive functions.Furthermore, in my opinion when the fixations of any type rule/govern a person's thinking and consequently their choices and that point they really are fundamentally an irrational type.
    Last edited by Sinny; 02-27-2017 at 10:32 PM.
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)

  2. #2
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Tri-Type isn't actually a theory that's very important to me, I'm happy sticking to the basics - but here's a tidied up compilation of the Eight Tri-Types anyway..

    Enneagram Tri-Type:

    The term Tritype refers to a theory regarding the Enneagram of Personality and was coined by Enneagram researcher and coach Katherine Chernick Fauvre.[1] The word tritype was formed from Latin, with the prefix tri meaning three,[2] and the word type added referring to the Enneagram types. The theory was initially inspired and developed as the result of research studies Fauvre conducted in 1994-1995 on the internal experience and personal image of the 9 types. Later, in 1996, Katherine met a teacher from Arica that referenced Oscar Ichazo's teachings on a similar theory that he referred to as the "tri-fix",[3][4] but there was nothing published on Oscar Ichazo's "tri-fix" work. In December 1996 and January 1997, Enneagram Monthly published an interview with Oscar Ichazo that included the concept of tri-fix. This validated Fauvre's research findings that individuals have not just one, but 3 Enneagram types. In 2008, Fauvre coined the term Tritype in order to distinguish the Fauvres' vast research and resulting theory from both Ichazo’s teachings, as well as from the teachings of Arica.

    Tritype theory suggests that while individuals primarily utilize one of the main Enneagram types as their "core type", everyone actually employs three central Enneagram types - the one that is the most dominant within each center of intelligence (the Head (567), Heart (234) and Gut (891) centers respectively). According to Katherine Fauvre, individuals use their main Enneagram type along with two other types in a consistent and cascading manner, to produce a kind of ego intersection among all three types.[5] Therefore, while each type within the Tritype is employed separately, the combination of all three types coming together gives each Tritype a unique defense strategy (or way of defending against reality) and a focus of attention. The Tritype is used to explain the distinctive way in which each individual manages life using various combinations of ego strategies and coping mechanisms, yet Tritype (like the Enneagram) still remains a theory of motivation and not one of behavior.

    Fauvre frequently refers to the "high side" and "low side" of these Tritype interactions and distinguish each as having a separate purpose. The high side of the Tritype intersection is that it gives direction, focus and purpose to the individual ego. The low side of this Tritype intersection is that it creates a blind spot which can narrow a person's ability to accurately self-assess and may even prevent a person from achieving a higher level of self-awareness by keeping them stuck in habitual and self-defeating patterns.

    The 9 Archetypes/Tri-Types of the Type Eight Enneagram:

    852 - The Strategist (258, 582, 825)
    853 - The Solution Master (358, 583, 835)
    854 - The Scholar (458, 548, 845)

    862 - The Rescuer (268, 682, 826)
    863 - The Justice Fighter (368, 683, 836)
    864 - The Truth Teller (468, 648, 846)

    872 - The Free Spirit (278, 782, 827)
    873 - The Mover & Shaker (378, 738, 837)
    874 - The Messenger (478, 748, 847)

    Compiled and organised from here:
    Edited only for continuity.

    The strategist Eight - (852)
    Archetype, The Strategist - Tritype (258)

    Cynical, headstrong, passionate, and moody.

    The 258 Tritype really wants to be of service by providing useful information to others and protecting others through their knowledge or expertise in a particular area. The energy seems quite split because of the introverted 5 interjecting with the extroverted 2 and 8 energy mingling. She said it can be a confusing type because there is a hot/cold quality to them that can be difficult for people to understand. One minute they are helpful and warm, the next cold and rejecting, and then another seemingly directive and blunt. On the high side they really know what is needed to protect and guide others. They can sometimes feel they don't have the internal resources to help others but want to have something to offer (which contributes to the hot/cold quality).

    If you are a 258, you are caring, knowledgeable and protective. You want to be helpful, wise and straight- forward. You are an intellectual ambivert both extroverted and introverted. You are caring and can easily move towards others to help, or feel over extended and feel the need to be pull away. Your life mission is to help, inform and/or protect others. A true analyst, you are happiest when you are in a position of leadership and can use your natural instinct to understand strategic principles to guide others. You can be so identified with your opinions that you can be too forward or too distant from others, which can appear intense, unpredictable and intimidating

    You have all three Realists Enneacards, (types: 2, 5 & 8) in your Enneaspread.
    Your emotional energy goes towards seeking safety and certainty in relationships. You are sensitive to and expect rejection from others. Also, you tend to feel separate from others. You hold back your true self in relationships, offering instead, a skill, service or protection. Overall, because you expect to be rejected, you are cautious in relationships and may be hesitant to form attachments. As a result, you want others to come towards you

    258: Triple rejection.... probably the most power-hungry of all fixes. Likely to deny that they have needs themselves, deny vulnerability, deny, deny, deny "it's the others who depend on me, not the other way around", and can exert a great deal of strategic insight into most situations and become the classic 'mastermind' behind affairs. When less healthy they are control freaks and can't leave others alone---they need to be the prime mover of them all, while denying all the way that they need the control.

    258: What's hard with her is that she inadvertently forces people (even friends) to be very blunt when her services, advice, or even presence is not needed. I guess it's the triple-rejection nature that brings on this.

    258: Expects rejection, works hard to prevent it and acts like it isn’t important.

    Type 8 in this Archetype:

    Eight/Two fix: The overtly magnanimous and big hearted eight. sacrificial-dominant
    style of relating to others; as protector, big spender, mama-bear

    852: Fear of weakness, humiliation and disenchantment. Tendency to seek strength, approval and intrigue.

    852: The rejection types it is said, are most comfortable at the initiation stage of a project or group, when they have to initiate and control things.

    The Competent Eight– (853)
    Archetype, The Solution Master – Tritype (358)

    Naturally inclined to be tenacious and persistent

    The Solution Master Archetype’s (358, 538, 853) are ambitious, knowledgeable and protective. You want to be efficient, wise and straight-forward. Tough-minded, you are good at studying a problem and finding both original and practical solutions others miss. Highly tenacious, you work tirelessly until you find solutions and prevail against adversity.

    Your life mission is to use your cleverness and astute powers of observation to serve the greater good. A true problem solver, you are happiest when you can evaluate what is needed and take action to create change.

    You can be so focused on your goals and ideas that you become an opinionated, hardnosed thinker that are in denial of your feelings. You can feel so vulnerable that you refuse to let in the importance and wisdom of your painful emotions.

    Type 8 in this archetype:

    853: Are focused and knowledgeable Eights. Most scholarly 8, especially if introverted. Most impersonal 8, especially if self-preserving. The 835 is the ambitious, tenacious, opinionated, tough minded, hardnosed, foundation building, mental giant that is in denial of and minimizing of their more tender emotions. The 835 is the most direct and blunt combination.

    The Withdrawn Eight – (854)
    Archetype, The Scholar - Tritype (458)

    *Darkest Tritype

    The 458 Tritype is the most direct and blunt and intense of all the Tritypes, with the exception of perhaps 358.

    They have an impenetrable inner world. They are complex individuals, but they are more characterized by the way they tend to push everyone away from them.

    The Scholar Archetype: (458, 548, 854): This is the most intense type, particularly if sexual. Intuitive, knowledgeable and direct. This is the type that really craves knowing what makes people tick and builds what she calls mental or internal maps that are quite astute as to what makes people do what they do. David said there is a propensity toward the grotesque, anatomical or intensely esoteric. This is the "true scholar" and the life mission is to disseminate what information is found. The blind spot is this has 3 types that can be prone to arrogance and the attachment to the internal map of what they've found can make them blind to new information as it comes in. So there will be a tendency to become fixed in their worldview or ideas particularly about people and not take in new information. So while the map is quite extraordinary that they've painted they may miss a whole region and thus not have the full picture. This is also the most cynical and the tendency to be so overly opinionated can make people turn off to their wisdom. She said when 8 is in charge there is a bit more compassion, and with an integrated 5 or 4 in charge you get a gifted spiritual teacher (Russ Hudson for example). An intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and to find the hidden meaning in all things.

    Type 8 in this archetype:

    The 854 is the somewhat introverted, intelligent, headstrong, a detached, hyper introspective problem solver, with strategic thinking and emotional astuteness.

    The 854 is intuitive and knowledgeable, the most withdrawn Eight, especially if introverted, has a 9 wing and/or sp. They have a self-possessed confidence with solution mastery.

    The 854 is more introverted intuition with the attention going inward. It can be darker and is more cynical.

    The 854 is the artsy and intellectual Eight, with a secret self-consciousness.

    Intense, especially with SX first. Independent, dark, cynical. Most eccentric. A withdrawn, sensitive, creative Eight. "Scholar" archetype. Wants to know what makes people tick.

    874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.

    The 4 brings more moodiness, more depth, more introspection; the 2 is more extroverted, more focused on helping other. The 458 Tritype fears rejection, hides it as well and can be hypersensitive to small slights. The 8 in both cases keeps these Tritypes from showing their sensitivity to rejection.

    The Compliant Eight – (862)
    Archetype, The Rescuer – Tritype (268)

    There is nothing passive about the 268.

    This type is characterized by the issues they have with others. They tend to get easily frustrated with others. They want help others but they also want things to go their way. They have a 'let me help you' quality.

    The Rescuer Archetype: (268, 682, 862). By nature, you want to be in charge of your world and are attracted to the noble cause. You wish to shield others from harm and challenge what is unjust. You want to know the rules to feel safe to break them. Your life mission is to track the needs of the vulnerable and take action on their behalf. A true rescuer, you are happiest when you can use your people skills and desire to protect others to help those that feel alone, desperate and are in a crisis. Your blind spot is that you can be so identified with the pride of knowing how to help others that you may give unsolicited advice or meddle in the affairs of others. You over-give to others to be well-liked, which prevents a deeper connection to your true self. Your growing edge is to recognize that always rescuing others does not mean that you will always be liked and cared for in return, and that it may prevent them from learning how to care for themselves. True protection comes from listening to higher guidance and knowing when to assist others and when to let them learn for themselves.

    The strongest theme I associate with the 268/682/826 is the need to rescue and protect, but not necessarily put up with problems on an extended basis. It's a kind of in-the-moment problem solving that expects the other to deal with it and move on.

    SX/SO 268 Tritype: I will describe this individual as obsessively possessive and domineering, taking on parental roles in most, if not all situations, and the SX/SO simply complete the smother. Most people will find him/her "way too much", like get the hell off me can't you and stop telling me what to do.

    For them power is dead important, though it will be more obvious to the observer than to the person him/herself.

    Both 2 and 6 leads to some issues with denial. Main type 2’s especially will "play innocent" while their power motive is seen by all those who suffered under his/her dominion.
    Also all three fixes have a somewhat calculating quality to me. They are definitely not without ulterior motives.

    The 8 in this archetype:

    Eight/Two fix: The overtly magnanimous and big hearted eight. sacrificial-dominant
    style of relating to others; as protector, big spender, mama-bear

    The 862 is a more cynical, loyal and helpful type 8, and is a more dutiful, loyal and helpful. They have a self-possessed confidence with solution mastery.

    The Normative Eight - (863)
    Archetype, The Justice Fighter – Tritype (368)

    Characterized by confrontation. Immovably disagreeable. They stay firm in their direction and beliefs and won't let anyone but themselves change that.

    The Debater Archetype: (368, 683, 863), The Justice Fighter. Verbally adept and a good reader of people and situations, you have the ability to identify unjust authority, rebel against tyranny and verbally spar against it. Your life mission is to challenge what is unfair and protect the innocent. A true justice fighter, you are happiest when you can use your protective energy and debating skills in service of others or a cause. Your blind spot is that you can be so identified with challenging what you perceive as unfair that you become overbearing, confrontational, anti-authoritarian, and indifferent to the wisdom of emotional intelligence and your tender emotions. Your growing edge is to recognize that your need to challenge and oppose can keep you from knowing who you are or what you feel. True protection comes from being in alignment with your higher self and knowing when to intervene and when to allow events to unfold.

    The Tritype 368 is focused on fighting for justice, the 8 brings a need to overcome and prevail.

    The 8 in this Archetype:

    Eight/Three fix: The notably success oriented, prominence seeking eight. utilizes
    image and manipulation to advance their career or enterprise. Business achievement can lead to political aspirations. The 864 is one of the most confrontational Tritypes, the other is the 863. The 6 amplifies the 8 need for loyalty and trust.

    The Truth Teller Eight – (864)
    Archetype, The Truth Teller – Tritype (4.6.8)

    *most reactive Tritype

    Intense, truth tellers, shoot from the hip, push for a response, rebelling, reacting, and defending. Direct and intuitive.

    The sexual 468 is very impacted by truth and speaking to what is hidden, unknown or unspoken. The intensity of the sx 468 puts this Tritype on the fast track.

    For self-preservation 468s the truth is fundamental in life, it requires calm, openness, free from mental noise or emotional reaction. Slow exploring and understanding. It feels like being free from emotional hooks and forget false views from the society without fighting them, to restore a peaceful and benevolent sense of my own goodness and truth at 1. After that I can become really happy and powerful at helping others by simply explaining what I've understood about life.

    The Truth Teller Archetype: (468, 648, 864). If you are Tritype 468, you are intuitive, inquisitive and direct. You want to be original, certain and straight-forward. You are highly sensitive, track inconsistencies and are like the ‘canary in the coal mine’ calling off unspoken agendas, motives and emotions. You are also very intense and can at times be rebellious and emotionally reactive. Your life mission is to identify what is insincere and not what it appears to be, and alert others of potential hazards. A whistle-blower, you are happiest when you are in a position to help others from being misled. You can be so focused on what can go wrong and on potential hazards that you miss how controlling you become and your impact on others and what is truly important and meaningful.

    The 468 is constantly calling off truth as they see it and sees it as their business to warn people of the potential downfalls and pitfalls in the emotional and mental world. It's the type in each centre that is "truth telling" and tends to be the most reactive, even hyperactive. She said it's typically sexual subtype, but she's seen social too. There's a tendency to feel an acute sense of disappointment because their incredibly acuity at seeing the problems ahead or the potential pitfalls of any situation causes people to misunderstand their reactivity and emotionality.

    You have all three Immediate Responder Enneacards, (types: 4, 6 & 8) in your Enneaspread. You see yourself as intense, responsive, challenging and instinctive. You avoid insincerity and people with hidden agendas. Like a canary in a coal mine, you are sensitive to what others miss. You tend to react strongly to pretence, seeking to call off the truth before moving forward. The 468 is a true challenger and truth teller. The 4 may be shy but this Tritype is very intense and reactive, quick to speak their mind. The 485 is the true intellectual that has strong opinions about their feelings and thoughts but less reactivity. Sexual instinct with 4 dominant makes both Tritypes more intense. The 468, however, is more dutiful and feisty whereas the 458 is one of the Tritypes that lives in their head researching and following their own muse.

    The 468 Tritype is meant to name the emotional truth that is unspoken and therefore missing and to go on a quest to find it. The Tritype 468 has a counter-phobic 6 and.... the 4 is counter-envious... as in... they hate being envious and try to contain their negative emotions. The problem is that the 468 is impulsive and emotional.... often confronting before they think about it. The 468 has the instinctual, emotional type in each centre. And, there is a need to call off the truth of what is unspoken. I find the 468 to be very persistent... relentlessly so when seeking whatever ignites their passion.

    As a 468, I find it tough to be up all the time. I see the darkness, the shadow, that the emperor has no clothes, I see the truth behind the persona, the lie we tell collectively to avoid the pain underneath. When the 4 and 6 are in the tritype there is more negativity as a strategy to prevent making a mistake that will bring shame, blame and criticism.

    Type 8 in this Archetype:

    Eight/Four fix: The moody, loner eight. Distinct outsider quality; as if on a highly
    personal mission. Tendency to feel exempt from conventional rules
    and circumstances.

    Sexual 4s, 6s and 8s can all be pretty fucking ruthless in their extermination of foes; take a sx 684 and you have a veritable pit bull, someone who potentially sees extermination as their mission. And given the truth telling nature of that Tritype and sx/so (at least their truth), that tendency is also compounded. (Truth telling= extermination of lies)

    The 458, 468 and 478 are all truth tellers in their own way. The 468 is the one that is hyper reactive and still seeks a fair authority.

    The Positive Eight - (872)
    Archetype, Free Spirit/Humanitarian – Tritype (2.7.8)

    *Most freedom loving

    Hardy individual and other-focused. Fun, charming, and sexual.
    Personifies the outgoing, helpful and confident nature of that lively archetype.

    The Free Spirit - (278, 782, 827): You like to use your charming, sunny disposition to create an upbeat, positive, and action-packed environment. You are also very nurturing to those in your circle of care. Your life mission is to be an instrument of change, transforming difficult situations into moments of inspiration. A true free spirit, you are happiest when you are on the go and helping others to learn to act on their own behalf. Your blind spot is that you can be so focused on keeping everything positive and honest that you can be too aggressive and fail to recognize the importance of difficult emotions. You also keep busy and in motion to avoid painful feelings. Your growing edge is to recognize that you need to always be positive, upbeat, and free can limit your ability to self-reflect and fully be yourself. True happiness and joy come from being present to your higher self and experiencing all of your emotions.

    The 8 in this archetype:

    Eight/Two fix: The overtly magnanimous and big hearted eight. sacrificial-dominant
    style of relating to others; as protector, big spender, mama-bear

    Eight/Seven fix: Focused, intuitive, and innovative. Most assertive and nonconforming 8. Moody, intense, eccentric, and entrepreneurial especially if SX.

    (872) Is caring and innovative. Most people-oriented 8. Likes to be in relationship. Gentle and helpful, especially with 9 wing. (872) is extremely positive, upbeat and helpful. They take charge but do so with a light touch that is sensitive to the needs of others. They are often humanitarians that focus on manifesting their vision..... Excess meets gluttony and pride... When the core fears of these three types unite it can create a defence strategy that is quite compassionate but can also struggle with issues of arrogance and/or pride about what they do. Most freedom loving.

    The Mover Eight – (873)
    Archetype, The Mover & The Shaker – Tritype (3.7.8)

    *Most assertive Tritype

    The Mover & The Shaker Archetype: (378 ,738, 873). If you are Tritype 378, you are ambitious, innovative and protective. You want to be efficient, happy and straight-forward. You are a dynamic go-getter, focused on the prize. An expansive powerhouse, you see the big picture and a positive future with the will to make it happen. Seeking success, obstacles are seen as competitive challenges. Your life mission is to see what is possible and find innovative ways to achieve your goals. A true mover and shaker, you are happiest when you are in a position of power to manifest your vision and make things happen. You need to be doing to feel alive. You can be so expeditious, assertive and results oriented that you miss your impact on others and the deeper meaning and significance of why you are doing what you are doing.

    You have all three Expansive Solution Enneacards (3, 7 & 8).
    Naturally forward and expansive, you see yourself as assertive, self-motivated, expeditious and results oriented. Focused on action, you resist being controlled and letting your feelings get in the way of achieving your goals. When opposed, you react immediately and when necessary are not afraid to move against others to manage problems.

    The Tritype 378 is triple assertive and has the added jolt of the high intensity sexual energy if SX. 378 is self-assured, innovative and bold, there will be more of a focus on being strong and attractive compared to other instincts. The 379 is a bit softer and more adept at softening their presentation. The 378 may be more outlandish so pays less attention to being cool and more attention to being the trailblazer.

    If you lead with 7 instead of 3 you will be less concerned with image and be less likely to track what others want you to be, as the 7 is more concerned with following their own muse. However, with the sexual subtype in charge both the 378 and the 738 will want to be alluring to potential intimates and mates and have a desire to find a mate who can handle their triple assertive energy.

    Type 8 in this Archetype:

    Eight/Seven fix: Focused, intuitive, and innovative. Most assertive and nonconforming 8. Moody, intense, eccentric, and entrepreneurial especially if SX.

    Eight/Three fix: The notably success oriented, prominence seeking eight. Utilizes
    image and manipulation to advance their career or enterprise. Business achievement can lead to political aspirations.

    The 873 is more focused on overcoming obstacles and succeeding in spite of the obstacles...they never give up. The 873 is less focused on the role and more focused on the position of power. With power comes success. The 873 wants to be seen as successful but wants autonomy more and are not dependent on other's view of them.

    The Idealistic Eight - (874).
    Archetype, The Messenger – Tritype (748)

    The Messenger Archetype: (748/847/874), is the most in need of freedom. This is the messenger archetype that feels they have a message to impart and wants the freedom to explore themselves and their external worlds. With 7 in charge it's an extremely hard to pin down type, that typically has no problems expressing the flamboyancy this tritype can bring (with 4 in charge the self-consciousness can take over, like with myself, and with 8 in charge you get more of a playful 7ish 8, like Pink or Katherine Fauvre). She also said it's the least political of the Tritypes (except maybe the 548 Tritype) because of the outspoken nature of the three types coming to together.

    If you are the Tritype 478, you are intuitive, innovative and straight-forward. You want to be original, inspirational and self-possessed. A cutting-edge tracker of both your internal and external worlds, you are an unconventional, passionate master of solutions. Outwardly, you are confident but inwardly you are emotionally vulnerable. Life Mission: Your life mission is to find truth and communicate your findings. A true messenger, you are happiest when you use your creativity to find compassionate ways to understand yourself and empower others. Blind Spot: You can be so focused on your opinions, insights and what is new and profound that your freedom seeking nature can come across as arrogant, resistant, and/or uncooperative.

    The 458, 468 and 478 are all truth tellers in their own way.
    The 458 and 478 are their own authorities.

    4 brings more a focus on the self and the internal world. The relationship to others is important. The 4 brings a move away with a pull, wanting others to follow. The 258 tentatively moves towards others. The 458 is as individualistic as the 784 but more opinionated and focused on and identifies with intellectual pursuits more sensitive and less people pleasing

    Type 8 in this Archetype:

    Eight/Seven fix: Focused, intuitive, and innovative. Most assertive and nonconforming Eight. Moody, intense, eccentric, and entrepreneurial especially if SX.

    Eight/Four fix: The moody, loner eight. distinct outsider quality; as if on a highly
    personal mission. tendency to feel exempt from conventional rules
    and circumstances.

    874 is intuitive and innovative. Most creative, original and nonconforming Eight. Moody, intense, and eccentric, especially if sx. The 874 is fast paced, emotional, optimistic and creative type Eight.

    As an sx 874 I feel called to discover as much as I can about human nature and then share what I learned. Some of my greatest moments of clarity have come during times of great adversity. When I feel grief and loss it always feels personal and I feel separate from others. When I allow the pain and suffering the 8 wants to avoid, I am able to connect to that which is universal and know that all people everywhere understand the meaning of loss. This is when I remember that I am never truly alone or separate
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)

  3. #3
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Birmingham, UK


    Enneagram Eight Resource Threads

    Spoiler: Inside

    What type Eight is really about

    The Economics of Conflict and Type 8

    Do Eights Devalue Kindness?

    Emotional Origins of Type 8

    What does it mean to "Survive" ?

    Naranjo's 'Character & Neurosis': Type 8 Chapter

    RAGE and Loss of Self Control

    8w7 control style vs 8w9 control style: The Conqueror vs the Patriarch

    8s, What Authority Can You Submit To?

    "Letting Go" As An Eight

    How long do you hold a grudge?

    How can you not be afraid in a world so fucked up ?

    Are you lovable?

    8s: Have you Considered Type 5 or Mistyped at 5? Why?

    Eights and Bi-polar spectrum mood disorders

    Female 8s: To what Degree do you Feel Male?

    8s: Do you have lots of Emotions?

    Im an 8w7 INTP

    E8 not liking E8 descriptions...


    Instincts, Premonitions, and Insights

    Being Questioned & Explaining Themselves

    How Eights Pay Attention [Palmer]

    Pushing buttons with lonely backfire

    8 In Bed & Intimacy


    8s and 8-fixers only - Are you angry, or just making a point?

    Morality and the type 8

    How to hold an Eight accountable without them feeling controlled?

    How do I get along with an enneagram 8?

    How to disarm an 8

    8s how do you get people not to fuck with you?

    Type 8 women: How often are you approached?

    Last edited by Sinny; 02-26-2017 at 05:45 AM.
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)

  4. #4
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Birmingham, UK

    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)

  5. #5
    unbeknownst Lilith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Nice thread.

    I came out 8w7 when I was first introduced to Enneagram. An ennea that is usually associated to ENTJs. After a year or so, I was 3w4. In retrospect, I think my 8w7 result was mostly due to the fact the I was going through a difficult phase of my life then. I want to be in control of my life to the extent of wanting to control others as well. All the 8w7s I know (mostly online), come off, you know, strong.

    Interested in how you view "power" and "control" as an introverted 8w7.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith View Post
    Nice thread.

    I came out 8w7 when I was first introduced to Enneagram. An ennea that is usually associated to ENTJs. After a year or so, I was 3w4. In retrospect, I think my 8w7 result was mostly due to the fact the I was going through a difficult phase of my life then. I want to be in control of my life to the extent of wanting to control others as well. All the 8w7s I know (mostly online), come off, you know, strong.

    Interested in how you view "power" and "control" as an introverted 8w7.

    I'm quite fascinated with the notions of power and control, that fascination would probably be most represented in my interest in politics and parapolitics...
    I'm fully on board with the notion that humans are still pretty animistic at their core, and I accept that we are mostly all slaves to our animistic impulses.. and those are manipulated quite easily.

    Power can present it's self in numerous ways, whether that be being control of material resources, or having significant sway over people (human resources)... and control can present in'ts self in innumerous, subtle ways.

    On a more personal level, as an introvert, I don't relate to the need to expand control over others.. I can barely control myself. I strictly do not interfere with others with the unspoken understanding that they do not interfere with me. The power I prize the most is the power of autonomy, and self determination. Suffice it to say, most of the adults in my life growing up, and still today, lived by such double standards that my trust in almost anything culturally authoritative eroded pretty quickly. So these days I'm always against the grain. Everything wants or is out to get power over you, whether that be the church, the government, your parents, or your boyfriend. It's amazing how all these social contracts are passed off as norms. That's a scary world, and I've unsubscribed from those contracts, and I have tried to limit their power and control over me. The worlds a fuct up place.. it's impossible to escape all aspects of those sorts of controls. I'm doomed to live in a world which perpetually pisses me off. I can never have complete control.. but we can play the game, and adapt as best we can.

    My power and control is exerted limitedly.. As Leslie Hershberger highlights, I'm likely to be aware of who has the power in any given situation or environment.. just so that I have my bearings. I can be pretty quiet and unassuming, but my principles are steadfast and most people know I can be replied upon to command a situation, take action, or pass a judgment if the need arise... I don't consciously control people, although I am naturally authoritative - but genial, and so most people bend to my will.

    The control I probably have most over people is the ability to manipulate their deepest emotions, or even their most basic actions. I've found out over the years that people are so easy to fuck with... But I've come to realise that holding power and control over people ... and using it for ..none magnanimous reasons, can leave me feeling unfulfilled.. even if it is fun. Anyway, there are bigger fish to fry, such as those in control of the money supply. Now they know a thing or two about power and control.. we're just small fry.
    Last edited by Sinny; 04-10-2017 at 12:20 PM.
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)

  7. #7
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about Reich's 'Segmental Armouring', and how I think it is present within myself...

    Reich and the Enneagram
    by David Hey

    According to Wilhelm Reich the human body is an energy system that is made up of segments. Energy pulses through the body and is aided by each of these different segments, or inhibited by them, depending on our conditioning, our upbringing and culture. As the requirements of training and education take hold, the energy system of the child gets restricted in ways that usually last a lifetime. This process seems to be inevitable, due to both the social and developmental requirements of becoming an adult. But there is also a lot of unnecessary damage that takes place in this process.

    Reich, a psychiatrist, believed that we are damaged primarily by the repression of energy that seeks expression through sex and feelings. He saw how we cripple our life energy by stuffing down our natural expression of feelings, especially sexual feelings, how we kill our life energy and render ourselves incapable of really enjoying life.

    Reich saw life energy as a pulsation, an expansion followed by a contraction of energy. He saw it as an outward and an inward movement of energy, as in the breath coming in and going out. The different segments he explored roughly correspond to the seven-chakra system of Patanjali, the chakras representing different energy centers.

    The seven segments Reich energetically explored are the ocular segment (eyes), the oral segment (mouth), the cervical segment (throat), the thoracic segment (chest), the diaphram segment (umbrella- shaped muscles under the lungs), the abdominal segment (belly) and the pelvic segment (sex). These seven muscle segments surround the body like rings that contract and expand to conduct energy through the system. In the body of a young child, before habitual defense patterns have formed, there is a unified expression of energy that flows naturally through the system. For example, a strong feeling originates in the belly and is then passed by pulsation through the different muscle segments to the chest and throat, until it finds its expression in the mouth with a cry of rage, a tremendous (belly) laugh or uncontrollable sobbing that involves the whole body. We move effortlessly through that energy, whatever it is. A charge builds up in the system and is released naturally.

    As we journey through childhood, we develop habitual holding patterns that limit the energy system of the human body. For example, we control our breath in order not to feel certain emotions. We “swallow” our anger or we hide our tears. We stuff down our real feelings – or we exchange our real feelings for other emotions that are more acceptable to our parents, feeling sad instead of angry, for example. But the energy charge that we hold down does not just disappear, it stays in the muscles themselves, locked in tension. With repetition, this tension hardens and becomes part of our musculature. Reich called this process “armoring.” In this way the seven segments can also work against the natural expression of our energy. Our core energy surges upward and outward, only to meet a wall of tension and resistance. Our psychological defenses become part of our body structure. Reaction formation, for example, a defensive pattern in which we automatically go against our natural impulses, will have a physical manifestation in the segment where that energy is blocked.

    Reich gave these holding patterns a name: counter-pulsation. If threatened, a child will stop crying. The muscles of the throat will tense up. The diaphragm will contract, breathing will become very shallow, and the energy of the tears will be stuffed back down the tube into the belly. This counter-pulsation reflects the dilemma of modern man, the human personality that is divided against itself. We have the capacity as human beings to cut off our own life energy, to decide whether it is ok to express our natural energy or not, but this control of our life energy often deadens us and leaves us living on a very thin slice of our total energy. Much of our life energy has gone into these defensive holding patterns, just to “keep it together.” The union of two thin slices is called marriage. And the two slices together do not even make a single person. No wonder there is trouble.

    Charles Kelley, a Neo-Reichian therapist who worked with Reich, developed the idea that our life energy flows between three sets of emotional polarities – fear and trust, pain and pleasure, anger and love. (2) Kelley found that fear is related to the inward movement of energy, from the periphery to the core. Anger is associated with the outward flow of energy, from the core to the periphery. And Pain is related to convulsive energy discharge, the rapid contraction and expansion of muscles that we experience in laughter, sobbing and orgasm.

    There are two primary responses to fear – fight or flight. Often we, we can do neither, which gives way to a third response, shock. The system freezes up. Fear generates a desire to get away, to escape from an unsafe environment. It is a shrinking, an energetic retreat from the periphery to the core. Being afraid is an uncomfortable experience and there is usually a corresponding protection against the fear itself. The inward rush of energy that fear creates is met by a kind of frozenness that keeps us from being completely overwhelmed by the fear. This frozenness can be looked on not only as a shock response but also as a protection against the shrinking movement caused by fear. This is a kind of inner armoring against fear.

    In terms of the Enneagram, there are three types that are most sensitive to the issues of fear and trust – the Observer, the Skeptic and the Epicure (5,6,7). As children, Observers fear the demands of the family, the Skeptic fears the lack of safety in the family, Epicures fear being limited by the family. All three have difficulty with trust, which is also an energy that moves from the periphery to the core, like fear. For all three types, their protections and defenses around fear inhibit their ability to trust, which is an allowing of energy from the outside to penetrate us on the inside. In the case of the fear types, their inner armoring against fear also prevents them from experiencing trust. Trust means allowing openness, receptivity and vulnerability. For that to happen, a certain amount of relaxation at the core is needed. It is precisely the absence of this relaxation that prevents the fear types from sinking into the core.

    According to the Enneagram, personality styles Five, Six and Seven are the mental types, the thinkers. The energy is centered in the head. But that does not mean that all of their holding patterns around fear are in the head. These holding patterns are present throughout the body. Sometimes fear types look thin and fragile, because energy is being held at the core and withheld from the periphery. Arms and legs can look weaker than in other types. But these are only generalized physical characteristics that do not apply to all fear types. We all experience fear and we all have specific holding patterns around fear. For the fear types, however, how they deal with fear is at the core of their personality style. Often this is recognizable in their body type.

    Unlike fear, anger moves in the opposite direction, from the core to the periphery. It is usually a strong outward flow of energy, a sudden rush from the core to the periphery. It can often be explosive and aggressive in nature. As civilized (highly conditioned) beings, of course, we are usually trained from childhood not to express anger. Controlling our anger creates tremendous tension in the muscles, especially around the mouth and jaw. The armoring of anger is located in the muscles throughout the body, wherever the anger gets stopped. Anger is a powerful energy that we need in order to set limits and to defend ourselves.

    Love, on the other hand, is a soft, empathic, tender energy that moves outward with a caring desire for closeness and sharing. Our holding patterns around anger limit our expressions of love. Love and anger are running on the same energetic pathway – if one is blocked, so will the other tend to be blocked. Our education teaches us to block anger, but the result is that our love also gets blocked. The delicate energy of love will not be able to pass through the hard layers of chronic tension related to blocking anger. Social and religious prohibitions against the expression of anger often have a good intention. In some Tibetan Buddhist traditions, one instant of anger will land you in the hot hells for eons. But energetically it is not possible to suppress anger and be loving and kind at the same time.

    The Enneagram types that are most preoccupied with anger are the Boss, the Peacemaker and the Perfectionist (8,9,1). These three styles of personality are often referred to as the belly types or the instinctual types. The source of anger is the belly. The Boss usually expresses anger directly, in a confrontational way. The Peacemaker expresses anger in a passive-aggressive way, indirectly. And Perfectionists usually express their anger as resentment or indignation. These types usually have strong hands and arms. Their muscles often appear to be stiff or thick. They are called “thick skinned” because their armoring at the periphery gives them an outwardly robust appearance, and they tend to be less sensitive to physical pain than other personality styles.

    Reich’s Segmental Armouring Theory

    Wilhelm Reich was a major contributor to the bodymind sciences of the early 20th century, and is credited as being the key driver of this form of scientific enquiry in the West up until the 1940’s. Reich proposed a model of the human condition that postulated a theory of energy being a primary component of all matter and space, a concept he called the orgone energy. This energy was important for living organisms as in effect it was a “life force”. Reich who was trained as a scientist, devised ways in which quantified this orgone as being electro-magnetic in nature, and that it could be measured, sensed and worked with in therapy.

    Reich had developed some key concepts about the human condition that fell under his theories of Orgonomy. Reich delineated armoring concepts during the Character Analysis and Orgasm Theory period of 1928-34. Reich defined Orgonomy as being the science of cosmic orgone energy (Reich:1934). Reich (1934) further defined orgone energy at that time as being “primordial cosmic energy; universally present & demonstrable visually, thermically, electroscopically, and by means of Geiger-Mueller counters, in the living organism”.

    From this place, Reich was interested in how this orgone energy interacted with the human condition, and expressed itself in the body and the mind. Reich established orgone therapy from this place as being the “Mobilisation of the orgone energy in the organism, ie, the liberation of the biophysical emotions from muscular & character armorings with the goal of establishing, if possible, orgastic potency” (Reich:1934). Reich stated that we develop muscular armouring to block this orgone energy.

    He stated “Armoring is the condition that results when energy is bound by muscular contraction and does not flow through the body” (Reich:1936) . He saw that there existed character armouring which he defined as “the sum total of typical character attitudes, which an individual develops as a blocking against their emotional excitations, resulting in rigidity in the body, and lack of emotional contact ”. He defined muscular armouring as “the sum total of muscular(chronic muscular spasms) which an individual develops as a block against the breakthrough of emotions and organ sensations, particularly anxiety, rage and sexual excitation” (Reich:1936).

    The overall effect of muscular armouring with character armouring created the individual. Alexander Lowen, who was an associate of Reich, best summed up this overall effect as “The character of the individual as it is manifested in his typical pattern of behaviour is also portrayed on the somatic level by the form and movement of the body. The body expression is the somatic view of the typical emotional expression which is seen on the psychic level as character. Defences show up in both dimensions, in the body as muscular armoring. ” (Lowen:1976).

    This theory was contained within Reichs overall theory of energy economy. This theory stated that “Economically speaking the character in ordinary life and the character resistance in the analysis serve the same function, that of avoiding unpleasure, of establishing and maintaining a psychic equilibrium – neurotic as it may be – and finally, that of absorbing repressed energies. One of its cardinal functions is that of binding “free-floating” anxiety, or, in other words, that of absorbing dammed up energy in the body.(Reich:1934).

    Reich then established a theory of segmental armouring to explain how the body establishes its psychic equilibrium. In this Segmental Armouring theory, seven segments of the body exist where armouring or muscular tensions develop or takes place, and where the segmental contractions are at right angles to the flow of “life force” or orgone energy in the body. In fact Reich’s concept of 7 segments also has a correlating overlay of the 7 chakra system of eastern Philosophy, and in many ways has a premise that is basically the same as proposed by eastern philosophy but in a western manner that attempts to be more quantitative and deductive.

    This theory as re-interpreted and updated under Bioenergetics and Core Energetics sees the 5 primary Character Structures as the fixation of the energetic movement in the body of a person. The organized vertical energy flow is antagonistic. The fixation of movement keeps the body in the sympathetic nervous system. When flow stops or is constricted, form develops with muscle or fat or stress develops and affects bone, muscle and fascia development.

    According to Core Energetics therapist Lisa Loustaunau (2004), when in childhood, a muscle contraction responds to a fearful situation, this is healthy, however, if the muscle stays contracted and gets stuck there, this becomes unhealthy (the body loses some of its natural, or core, wisdom).

    These are the 7 segments that were delineated by Reich:

    1. Ocular (eyes, forehead, tear ducts)
    2. Oral (mouth, chin, pharynx)
    3. Cervical (neck, platysma, sternocleidomastoid) )
    4. Thoracic (chest, intercostal, pectoral, shoulders)
    5. Diaphragm (diaphragm, stomach, solar plexus, lower thoracic vertebrae)
    6. Abdominal (abdominal muscles and lower back muscles)
    7. Pelvic (pelvic, genital)

    The characteristics of the 5 basic archetypal character structures are predictable outcomes based on Reich’s armouring theories, and tell us much about a person’s personal history which is written into the body.

    Reich also delineated the concept of a physical block held in the body, which may show physical manifesting signs. Blocks often show one of the 7 segments as overcharged, an adjoining segment undercharged, and tension is in both the boundary of the 2 segments, and also the overcharged segment. The undercharged segment often shows atrophy of muscles and skin turgor. Reich also believed that the left side of the body revealed feminine self identity issues, and the right side of the body revealed masculine self identity issues.

    This interaction of the 7 segments forms the etiology of the 5 Primary Character Structures. The 5 Character structures are not formed in isolation to one segment ,but relate to Energy economy and the regulation is between segments and also believed to be via chakras as proposed by Eastern philosophy. Dr. Anodea Judith has written a very good book, called “Eastern Body, Western Mind”, which attempts to map chakra system concepts, to Reich’s Segmental Armouring and Character Structures. Further information can be found on this interaction on her Sacred Centers website.

    Reich’s Concept of Armoring

    Wilhelm Reich coined the term armoring as a reference to character and body armor. Initially trained as a psychoanalyst with Freud, Reich veered from standard theory and practice and over time conceptualized a very different paradigm. He practiced with an engaged style in the here and now, interacting with how patients presented in the office and toward him.

    Reich created the term character armor. He meant that we all have coping patterns – stylistic character defenses that we develop throughout our life, usually starting before we can think or talk. We scope out our life situation with parents, caregivers, and early schooling, and figure out the best way to adapt. Depending on how our life unfolds, our defensive structure either becomes more adaptive or becomes problematic. Reich called our habitual demeanor, stance and attitude character armor. Our dominant, submissive, pleasing, withdrawn, petulant, stubborn styles, for example, become a uniform we wear in relationships – our suit of armor.

    As Reich’s work progressed scientifically, his focus turned to the body and the way it mirrors the character in all systems. He found that our bodies embody the template of our personalities and conform to those dictates. Reich discovered the basic pulsation in the universe and that healthy organisms and organs have natural expansion and contraction. That life energy pulsates. When we are armored, our pulsation is interrupted and the movement restricted; the energy flow throughout our body is impeded. We may experience this as a lack of sensation, aliveness, a stiffness or tension. Armor can develop into painful sensation if places in our body have chronic holding or are under-charged

    ... Which then brings us on to me, a phallic narcissist come chronic depressive. Just as Reich rightly predicted/projected.. My anger armourings have manifested themselves in general muscle thickness, a tightly held jaw, pursed lips, chronic tension in the trapezius muscles, pulled back sholders, and a rigid pelvis.

    Reich’s Character Types: Phallic Character Types & the Narcissistic Character (excerpts)

    Reich divided his types into Categories: Genital, Phallic, Anal, Oral and Ocular Types. These are correlated with developmental phases of growth, affecting the character and their biophysical/energetic progression. If an individual does not sustain the Phallic level, he or she may drop back to a Pregenital level (an earlier level of development) because those fixations or blockages dominate the picture. I will be covering the Pregential characters according to Reich and Object Relations in future posts. For the next few posts, I will be discussing Phallic Character Types, the first one being the Narcissistic Character Type.


    Biophysically, the Narcissist has a well-proportioned, athletic body with high energy and vigor. They can be good looking and attract others to them through their good looks. Due to their high energy, they can be expansive in their actions yet bristle easily due to their high charge. Also, because they build up energy easily, they can be impatient and overly aggressive in benign situations. They can move from charming to arrogant and from warmth to cold withdrawal.

    The Narcissistic Character’s armoring is general yet focused in an inflated chest, armored diaphragm with upper body, shoulder, and neck armoring, and tension in the legs. The chest cannot give in to the breath or yield to softer feelings. There can be other blocks that can dominate the picture. For example, if there is a significant eye block, then the character turns more paranoid. If the oral block dominates, then the Narcissist experiences depression. I will say more in another post on unsatisfied or repressed blocks. These blocks help paint a more thorough picture with shadings that illuminate each particular person within the character type.

    Narcissists seek therapy when their empires break down. Maybe they lose a good job or their marriage, get demoted, or otherwise lose their status through loss of wealth, status or power. Then they begin to feel their weak, fragile, dependent underpinnings. They are habituated to control and dominate at their work or in their families. Suddenly, the hierarchical status symbols are waning. Aging, loss of image, illness, loss of control: all these types of situations challenge the Narcissistic Character. They are not flexible in adjusting to losses that affect their identity. They can fall into depression, lose motivation, and become unstable and anxious. Or they throw temper tantrums and rage at their weakening defenses. They have been bolstering themselves with external approval and external identity and, when that shifts, they experience alienation, fragmentation, loss of self, and depression.

    Phallic Types who cannot maintain their dominance over their lifetime or who initially did not get their emotional needs met in their family of origin will become chronically depressed. They fall into our next type: the Chronic Depressive covered in my next post.

    Reich’s Phallic Character Types & the Chronic Depressive Character

    This post continues our discussion of Phallic Character Types. In my last post, we visited the Narcissistic Character who heads up the Phallic Character Types. As we discuss these types further, I will delineate various blocks that color the basic Phallic Type.

    The Chronic Depressive is a Phallic Type but, due to holding-repression in the oral segment, namely the mouth and jaw, (see post on the Oral Segment) this Phallic type suffers from depression. He has all the basic features of the Phallic but, because the block is predominantly in the oral segment, his energetic movement and expression is clamped down resulting in depression. Reich stated that this diagnosis is predominantly male, though I have seen this character type in females as well.

    A healthy oral segment facilitates taking in with pleasurable sensations through a wide-open, soft, receptive mouth. Also, we give out through our oral expression in the form of voice: words, sounds, and feelings, facilitating relational communication so that we may pursue our needs in the world. This segment, if restrained, reduces both what is taken in as well as expressed. If the lips are tight and thin, and the mouth clamped down, then not much goes in or comes out. There is a lack of sensuality with oral repression. The more the block dominates, the more one experiences depression. The Chronic Depressive struggles between his energetic Phallic Narcissistic features and the oral repression that drags him to earlier developmental blocks. He has maintained his Phallic station, but has a lowered energy level and, if the oral block dominates, he can give up the Phallic level completely and the depression overrides any free flow of energy.

    This Type is quite sensitive to his own feelings, and the feelings of others, as his phallic narcissistic traits are minimized by depression. The Chronic Depressive has lively, contactful eyes and can make good contact. His eyes are an expression of his sensitivity and, at times, heightened feelings. He frequently experiences anxiety as feelings churn within, and he is acutely aware. He can be generous – he often care-takes others. His care-taking impulses ward off his deep longings. He takes care of others rather than expressing his needs to be loved and cared for. He has a long history of self-sacrifice. He doesn’t want to rock the boat so he learns to adjust to circumstances and not demand too much for himself. This is his bind.

    He may not appear depressed and sometimes he isn’t, as he can be quite engaged in the world. But inside, he battles with his depression. He is strong but restrained. It is the restraint that is his weakness. He can’t quite realize his own agenda – come out into the world and claim who and what he is, as a Phallic Narcissist can. His oral repressed block tempers his power and then he feels depressed.

    The Chronic Depressive has a serious temperament. When the depression is activated, he can feel low energy. He will have cognitions that go along with depression, for example self-blame and criticalness. As Phallic Narcissists blame others, the Chronic Depressive blames himself and takes all the responsibility. He accepts others’ weaknesses but doesn’t offer the same tolerance toward himself.

    He is extremely honest and responsible in all aspects of his life. He has a strong drive and is often is very competent, even with his lowered energy level. He is usually above average in intelligence, orderly, and conscientious. He can have compulsive traits due to the drag back from the Phallic to the oral level. This can show up in hyper orderliness and meticulousness. Yet he does not function up to his capacity. Since he does not live up to his natural energy level, he feels inadequate and then guilty about that. So he gets caught up in a loop.

    The Chronic Depressive does have ample determination and doggedly keeps going. He longs to expand, express, and feel free from the psychological weight he carries but has strong inhibitions against the desired freedom. He does not let himself feel pleasure on a regular basis and modulates his entitlement. It’s as if he has to take care of others first and is reluctant to give himself what he wants. This is why Chronic Depressives make excellent caregivers and are enablers. He survives by being needed. And ignores himself by focusing on others as a way of deflecting his own anxiety and depression.

    Therapy helps to mobilize and expand the Chronic Depressive’s energy. In bodywork, the chest is mobilized so he can breathe more freely. With the expanded breath and energy, he can feel his inhibited rage that has resulted in depression and release it. Also, his deep sorrow, loss, and grief can be felt through crying. His oral segment begins to give way and his mouth softens. With these changes, his energy is freed so he can direct it towards his own life and creative activation. He realizes his longing for pleasure and love and can go about changing his life. His negativity can be transformed into pleasurable life experiences. His natural drive helps him to work intently in therapy – he sticks with it and gains the benefits.

    The Phallic-Narcissistic Character

    The Phalli-Narcissistic Character is confident, energetic, and impressive in his manner. He is athletic with hard, sharp masculine lines. However, he often has a baby face. His jaw is set forward and determined. He has wide shoulders, a full chest, a narrow waist and tight legs. His raised and squared off shoulders are a sign of premature responsibility. His respiration tends to be abdominal; his chest is held in the inspiratory position. In the back, the flow of anger into his arms is blocked by tight shoulder muscles. He has a fixation of the pelvis posteriorward. This causes a pressure of the bladder. All his muscles, but particularly those of the pelvis, the shoulders and the face are in a state of chronic tension.

    .. I can damn well feel it all too. Where's Wilhelm Reich when I need a massage?!
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)

  8. #8
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    Fighting With Enneagram Eights

    Enneagram style 8 is one that is often misunderstood and maligned as being aggressive, heartless, or cold.

    This couldn’t be further from the truth - beneath a prickly exterior is a truly soft and gentle soul. If you are in a close relationship with an 8 though, it can be difficult to know how to resolve conflict with them.

    Their conflict style is overwhelming to most people initially. In the midst of a disagreement the 8 will often say harsh or hurtful things, typically not unfair or wholly untrue things as other types might - but rather brutally honest or abrasive.

    They may take a competitive stance, wanting to “win” the argument. Given these facts it may seem your role in the fight is to calm things down and keep things reasonable.
    In fact, the opposite is true!

    Here are some tips to resolve a disagreement with an 8.

    -Don’t back down as a way to resolve the conflict. It is likely the 8 wants to win, but even more than that they want a fight. Give them that fight and don’t pull punches (within reason and bounds of safety, of course!)

    -Even though the 8 comes out swinging and with an angry demeanor, it is likely you are fighting because of hurt feelings or some other much softer reason. If you have finished your discussion and you don’t have a clear sense of that soft reason- you haven’t resolved the issue yet. Keep fighting.

    -Above all, your role in this fight is to get to the 8’s soft underbelly. Not in the sense of a cheap shot or hitting them where it hurts- the 8 essentially needs to burn off the top layer of angry emotion in order to access, feel, and resolve the underlying hurt. In a sense, your job is to keep provoking the 8 to talk/yell/seethe until they can communicate from that place. This may mean you are an escalating force in the argument until the 8’s anger boils over, and they are left with the more vulnerable emotion.
    It takes a strong person to fight with an 8. You can do it!
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)

  9. #9
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    What makes you angry?

    I have read that the heart traid is driven by shame, the head triad driven by fear, and the gut triad driven by anger.

    So, eights, what sorts of things fuel your anger the most?

    So many possibilities, honestly. Someone rubbing me the wrong way either with words, or physically can make me angry. I hate having to repeat myself, or go into details with explanations. I think this is why i can only connect deeply with intuitive types, as the thought of having to over express or explain makes me batty.

    Sketchy Cadet
    Boredom and the mundane. The soft, the comfortable, the secure.

    "Injustice": anything that I perceive as injustice opens up the old wounds of being 'unjustly treated'. I think someone messed up my wonderful world and constantly looking out for the culprit.

    People who are not loyal and backstabbers

    Ignorance, melodramatic people, self-centered people, people that don't stand behind their word, manipulation, spinelessness, injustice, bad parenting, gossip, hypersensitivity..

    Swordsman of Mana
    come to think of it, there are a lot of things that make me angry
    - people who are disrespectful to people they don't know
    - people who abuse their children (and people who abuse their spouse, but abusing children makes me more angry)
    - bullies of any sort
    - people who don't give you any fucking space
    - people who inconvenience you without a very good reason
    - people who try to tell what your supposed to do
    - people who aren't real with yo ass
    - women who talk to every man they see like they're 14
    - people who don't make an effort to communicate with you when they need to (sucking at communication is forgivable, not communicating isn't)
    - people who try to push their agendas on you
    - people who try to guilt trip you
    - people who don't value human life
    - people who kiss ass to get what they want
    - people who need some sort of social hierarchy and can't understand the idea of true equality. essentially, people who either know how to be submissive bitches or bullies who have no self respect whichever position they are in
    - people who won't break rules under any circumstances
    - people who give you something and expect you to give something back (if you're going to give me something, do so with no strings attached or don't do it at all)
    - people who don't respect human rights and think that things like freedom and privacy are priviledges that someone has the authority to take away from you
    - people who expect you to follow commands without being willing to offer a thorough explanation as to why it needs to be done

    Soros (Lol, the synchronicity of this one!)
    I get furious when people throw wild assumptions without basis, wether it's about me or a subject I have interest in doesn't matter. Same goes for passive aggressiveness.

    First and foremost, injustice. I have lost friends over this - because I refuse to help or stand by someone who's clearly in the wrong. On the other hand, even if I immensely dislike you, I will fight for your natural rights if you're being deprived of them.

    These things make me angry:

    - Any kind of injustice.
    - Sexism.
    - Manipulation.
    - Ignorance.
    - Being told what to do.
    - Too clingy people who don't show any respect to my personal space.
    - People without willpower.
    - Backstabbing is unforgivable.
    - Unreliability. Not standing behind your words. Betraying my trust. Hypocrites.
    - And if I'm already angry, telling me to calm down will make me even angrier.
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)

  10. #10
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Birmingham, UK
    Repost, today's food for thought:

    Quoting Swordsman of Mana - You know you're an Eight when -
    - ever since you were a child, you've held a Darwinian and, at times, somewhat Machiavellian view of the world that conflicted severely with the instincts of your limbic brain (forming emotional bonds with people, wanting to believe that there is some sort of justice in the world, being an emotional creature by nature). as a child, this caused you intense emotional discord and internal non-congruence, but, over time, your Darwinian paradigm of reality begins to win out over and "desensitize" your limbic brain's natural responses. over time, your mind becomes similar to a reptilian predator and you feel dead on the inside, probably experiencing feelings of apathy. at this point, the only emotions you're comfortable with being anger, desire for acquisition and a will to survive at all costs.

    - when something, usually a person you're close to, reawakens the natural tendencies of your limbic brain and, during an experience that would make most people feel ecstatic or warm and fuzzy, your first response is feeling strongly uncomfortable. after that, it gets even worse and this uncomfortable yet simultaneously euphoric feeling turns into pain and perhaps more anger and frustration, you may even show unintentional aggression towards this new object of your affection and are probably all around confused about how to handle this situation

    - when, as you get older, you get more and more in touch with your feelings resulting in more, you guessed it, pain. the more in touch you get with your heart, the more you realize how diseased, neglected and stagnated it's become.

    - when, once you begin the long process of healing, it starts to get better. you begin to experience new, foreign emotions that are fulfilling in ways you've never experienced before and even experience a kind of childlike bliss (though childlike might not be the best word to describe it in this instance because you probably weren't very "childlike" even when you were a child)
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)

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