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Thread: Objective Morality and God

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    Married Mouth-breather JohnClay's Avatar
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    Objective Morality and God

    A Christian wrote: "without God, there is no moral objective law to differentiate between good and evil"

    Yes that is true. I can't objectively claim that causing billions to suffer for an eternity for a limited amount of sin is evil. But if God does it then by his standards it is good. In our society it is against the law to torture people but I guess God can do that if he likes since he is the creator of the universe.

    I also can't claim that genocide is always objectively evil but if it is done by God's command (Deuteronomy 20) I guess it is good.

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    Member Guess Who's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnClay View Post
    A Christian wrote: "without God, there is no moral objective law to differentiate between good and evil"

    Yes that is true. I can't objectively claim that causing billions to suffer for an eternity for a limited amount of sin is evil. But if God does it then by his standards it is good. In our society it is against the law to torture people but I guess God can do that if he likes since he is the creator of the universe.

    I also can't claim that genocide is always objectively evil but if it is done by God's command (Deuteronomy 20) I guess it is good.
    That makes a lot of sense to me.

    I came across this example of the Socratic method debating whether faith in God is the only true basis of morality.

    I am no fan of the Socratic method and didn't find the argument made in the example to be compelling. It just looked silly and childish.
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    DOA Space Invaders Champion Neville's Avatar
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    For not believing in God you sure got your dick way up in all this shit.
    “Then there you lie like the one warm spark in the heart of an arctic crystal.”

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    Married Mouth-breather JohnClay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neville View Post
    For not believing in God you sure got your dick way up in all this shit.
    I guess I want to appear to be open-minded about God... that way I'm more likely to trick believers into embracing Satan!

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    Married Mouth-breather JohnClay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
    That makes a lot of sense to me....
    So you would think anything that God commands is fine, such as killing everything that breathes in cities in the promised land? (Deuteronomy 20) I wonder if there's anything God could do that you would find immoral?

    BTW I find it interesting that in the Garden of Eden there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil... that implies that originally people didn't have a sense of morality.

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    Married Mouth-breather JohnClay's Avatar
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    BTW the Bible commands people to love God with ALL their heart, soul and mind (Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27, Deuteronomy 13:3) So I guess if you don't let him do as he pleases you are sinning.

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    Vacantly Occupied rincon's Avatar
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    Member Guess Who's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnClay View Post
    So you would think anything that God commands is fine, such as killing everything that breathes in cities in the promised land? (Deuteronomy 20) I wonder if there's anything God could do that you would find immoral?
    In Romans 9:19-24, the Bible says One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?

    The difficulty in understanding this aspect of God stems from the human concept of fairness. The fact that not everyone gets to go to heaven seems unfair. The fact that some people were created in such a way that they are have no chance of going to heaven and are instead destined to go to hell seems incredibly unfair.

    God is responsible for running the whole world and ensuring that has plan for the salvation of humanity comes to fruition. God created all people and created them for different purposes to ensure that His long-range plans succeed. This means that He has a different perspective to humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnClay View Post
    BTW I find it interesting that in the Garden of Eden there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil... that implies that originally people didn't have a sense of morality.
    I think so. God knows the difference between right and wrong and instructed humans to do only things which were right and therefore beneficial and humans knew that God had their interests at heart so obeyed all of His commands and benefited from living in accordance with truth.

    Satan deceived humans and convinced them that there was something to gain from disobeying God.

    Truth is one while untruth is many. Having freedom to choose something other than what God has commanded us only gives us the ability to choose from one of the numerous untruths. Choosing truth brings benefits while choosing untruth brings harm. Freedom is appealing but there is nothing to be gained because in practice, exercising freedom means choosing untruth and facing the harmful effects that come from living in accordance with untruth.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnClay View Post
    BTW the Bible commands people to love God with ALL their heart, soul and mind (Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27, Deuteronomy 13:3) So I guess if you don't let him do as he pleases you are sinning.
    I don't see how I can stop God doing as He pleases. Anyway, I think He is doing a great job so have no desire to prevent Him doing anything that He is.
    Last edited by Guess Who; 05-13-2017 at 07:12 AM.
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    Married Mouth-breather JohnClay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
    In Romans 9:19-24, the Bible says ....But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”...
    Yeah how dare your creation question the command to love God with all your heart, mind and soul?

    The difficulty in understanding this aspect of God stems from the human concept of fairness. The fact that not everyone gets to go to heaven seems unfair. The fact that some people were created in such a way that they are have no chance of going to heaven and are instead destined to go to hell seems incredibly unfair.
    The traditional Christian view is that we all "deserve" to suffer in the lake of fire forever and ever and ever with no chance of escape. I don't think that is a fair punishment for a limited amount of sins. If it was just about missing out on heaven then I wouldn't have much of a problem with it.

    ...instructed humans to do only things which were right and therefore beneficial and humans knew that God had their interests at heart so obeyed all of His commands and benefited from living in accordance with truth.
    How did the genocide and killing of animals in Deut 20 benefit humans?

    ...I don't see how I can stop God doing as He pleases.
    But it is possible to think he is unfair or unloving.

    Anyway, I think He is doing a great job so have no desire to prevent Him doing anything that He is.
    Is this animal suffering he is responsible for "great"? Well I guess you'd say that humans or the talking snake were responsible...
    http://forums.intpcomplex.com/showth...-groaning-quot

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    Member Guess Who's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnClay View Post
    How did the genocide and killing of animals in Deut 20 benefit humans?
    I guess it showed God's power and helped convince people that God really does exist. Maybe it was done for the benefit of future generations. We are talking about this one particular God thousands of years later rather than any other so-called gods who were not able to demonstrate their power in any significant way.

    Life in the ancient world was very different. People were much less educated, the world was lawless and news had to be big to travel very far.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnClay View Post
    But it is possible to think he is unfair or unloving.
    Definitely. God's genocides in ancient times and condemning people to suffer in hell does seem unfair and unloving to the 21st century human mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnClay View Post
    Is this animal suffering he is responsible for "great"? Well I guess you'd say that humans or the talking snake were responsible...
    http://forums.intpcomplex.com/showth...-groaning-quot
    Suffering serves a purpose. If there was no suffering then people would ignore God. Experiencing and witnessing suffering can also build resilience in people.
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