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Thread: Objective Morality and God

  1. #11
    Senior Member Senseye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
    Suffering serves a purpose. If there was no suffering then people would ignore God.
    I'd suggest the opposite. If there were no suffering it would seem impossible to ignore god. You'd pretty much have to suspect a higher power controlling the chaos. Do you think people in heaven ignore God? I presume heaven is a suffering free zone.

    However, since chaos exists, humanity is forced to build a reason for it's existence into their concept of god.

  2. #12
    Member Guess Who's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senseye View Post
    I'd suggest the opposite. If there were no suffering it would seem impossible to ignore god. You'd pretty much have to suspect a higher power controlling the chaos. Do you think people in heaven ignore God? I presume heaven is a suffering free zone.

    However, since chaos exists, humanity is forced to build a reason for it's existence into their concept of god.
    These are all good points. A world with suffering does make the existence of God less obvious.

    I need to clarify. God wants us to choose to follow Him, which means that He needs to make it easy for us to not to follow Him. If God's goal was to have as many people as possible follow Him, He'd regularly make it obvious that He is exists and is very powerful.

    In a world where God didn't make His existence obvious, I think a lack of suffering would make people focus on their own lives and continue to ignore God.

    The Old Testament records how God performed miraculous signs and sent prophets to bring his chosen people close to Him but after a short time they forgot all about God and focused on carnal and material pursuits again. That is just human nature. God's chosen people failed time and time again despite God clearly revealing Himself to them on multiple occasions. The Old Testament shows that human nature is flawed and we need to transform it by receiving the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

    Faith in God brings about a transformation that results in a great sense of inner peace. Suffering is mostly mental. Faith in God doesn't end the physical acts of others that can result in metal suffering but does greatly reduce the mental suffering.
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  3. #13
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    Where again is the objective proof of God, god or any other such being or force, from which we derive and/or to which we compare and/or under the context of which we discuss systems of morality?

  4. #14
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    An objective version of morality would have an overall positive influence on humanity. In a technological age what that means long term is debatable. AI short term people are happy, long term Terminator is the new first Testament...

    What isn't debatable is most of the pillars of religion/god work against what are obvious good things in the here and now. Free speech, reproductive knowledge, general knowledge etc..

    It's a tough argument to make that religion offers anything to morality that is positive much less being the owner of it.

  5. #15
    Member Guess Who's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptah View Post


    Where again is the objective proof of God, god or any other such being or force, from which we derive and/or to which we compare and/or under the context of which we discuss systems of morality?
    It is not there if you don't want to find it.
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  6. #16
    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
    It is not there if you don't want to find it.
    Objective proof is a matter of fact. You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.
    Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent. - Mao

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    Objective proof is a matter of fact. You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.
    I don't find myself arguing with people over facts that often. I find that disagreements mostly stem from the different conclusions that we form from facts that we both agree on.

    I have not come across any objective proof of the existence of God in the sense that most people mean it nowadays. We will probably agree on this point.

    The closest thing I have found is the weakness of the evidence presented for the theory of evolution when it is examined closely.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post

    The closest thing I have found is the weakness of the evidence presented for the theory of evolution when it is examined closely.
    Even if evolutionary theory were completely wrong it does nothing to further the case for god.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaselation View Post
    Even if evolutionary theory were completely wrong it does nothing to further the case for god.
    Complex life obviously exists. If complex life didn't evolve from simple life through natural processes, then that suggests to me that it was created by an intelligent and purposeful being. Can you think of any other plausible explanations for the origin of complex life other than these two?
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  10. #20
    Member Chaselation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
    Complex life obviously exists. If complex life didn't evolve from simple life through natural processes, then that suggests to me that it was created by an intelligent and purposeful being. Can you think of any other plausible explanations for the origin of complex life other than these two?
    Evolution would in this case just be failed science in the face of new and superior science. The answer here is never this theory failed so "insert god" . Science by its nature will move to an answer.

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