View Poll Results: Does your job have meaning?

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  • Yes

    8 66.67%
  • No

    4 33.33%
  • Maybe

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Thread: Capitalism creates useless jobs?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Guess Who's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Capitalism is based on capital accumulation, things by which revenue may be generated (e.g., a road, or even a road crew).
    The word capital can mean capital goods but also refers to the money needed to undertake any business venture. In practice, most businesses borrow money to undertake business activities because it is profitable to do so. The debt increases slowly while the asset hopefully sees a large increase in value. If this happens, the growth in asset value is sufficient to allow the loan to be repaid and leave a sizable profit.

    In practice, businesses and investors rely on borrowed money to operate. If they can achieve a capital gain (increase in the price of a physical asset), it is profitable to do it that way. If someone borrows money to buy an asset that is appreciating in value, then they own that asset and the capital gain belongs to them. On the other hand, if someone saves up money to buy an asset that is appreciating in value, they don't own the asset until they have saved up enough money so the capital gain and any income generated by that asset in that time does not belong to them.

    Let's say I inherited a house. I could rent out the house and save up the rental income until I had enough money to buy a second house and then keep repeating this process. If I did this, I'd pay a lot in tax and probably never be able to save up enough to buy a second house. That would be absolutely stupid. A smarter way to do it would be to use my first house as collateral and take out a bank loan to buy a second house and use the rental income of both houses to pay off the loan. If I was smart and bought at the bottom of the property cycle, the second house would appreciate in value and I could sell it at a future time and the growth in the value would allow me to pay off the loan in full and make a decent profit.

    There is an opportunity cost in not borrowing money because one misses out on claiming any growth in the asset value and income generated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Money is a form of payment, a way to resolve debts between parties.
    Money is a tool but it is more than that. The money supply is growing, which suggests that money must be being created. Money is created out of thin air by central banks.

    Imagine that there is no money in existence. I borrow $1,000 from my bank to buy a pile of coconuts from you. The bank adds +$1,000 to my savings account and creates a loan account with a balance of -$1,000. There is still technically no money in the economy. I transfer the +$1,000 to your savings account at the same bank. The balance in my savings account is now $0 and my loan account has a balance of -$1,000. The total amount of money in the economy is still $0 if we count the +$1,000 in your savings account. Next, the bank adds interest to my loan account so the balance is now -$1,100. I have to repay the bank $1,100 or more but the only money available in this scenario is the $1,000 in your account. I could process the coconuts and sell them to you for $2,000 but you don't have enough funds to pay me $2,000, so you'd have to take out a bank loan to do so. Because loans must be repaid with interest, there is never enough money to repay all loans so new loans must be taken out to repay existing loans and more loans must be taken out to repay these loans.

    Economic growth creates opportunities to borrow money profitably, which allows previous debts to be repaid and keeps the system working smoothly. The money system relies on the expansion of debt, which relies on economic growth. The problem is that Western economies are fully developed so there are very few opportunities left for economic growth.

    At the moment, money is created from thin air by the elites and used as a tool to keep us in debt slavery. In future, I think there will be a UBI funded by money created by the elites from thin air. It will be used to control us because people deemed ideologically suspect won't be given one of the limited number of jobs and will have to rely on a modest UBI. This UBI may be reduced and restricted in the case of those deemed ideologically incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Fiat money, which includes the dollar since 1971, is legal tender backed strictly by a government's authority and power.

    While you and I consider the dollar an asset with which to pay for goods and services and may receive it as compensation for our own services, the government recognizes it as a liability.
    "Money can be thought of as a claim held by consumers and firms against the government."
    https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/sr/sr374.pdf

    In short:
    Money = bitcoin
    Capital = pizza
    http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-pizz...ght-10000-btc/
    I understand that there is a theory of what money is. However, in practice, I think money for people like you and me is just the right to buy and sell. Money is increasingly becoming an account balance stored on banks' hard drives combined with the authorization of the bank for a person to alter the balances of their own and other people's accounts (transfer money from one account to another). At present, banks authorize every electronic transfer as long as the account balance is sufficient. However, I can imagine that in future governments might impose requirements on banks to block transfers to and from some people (e.g. political dissidents), for certain goods or in certain locations. If this was the case, buying is not just a matter of having sufficient funds and selling is not just a matter of finding a willing buyer. People could potentially need the government's permission to buy or sell anything. When there is no cash and money is completely electronic, the state will really have us by the balls because it can dictate what we buy and sell.
    Last edited by Guess Who; 07-16-2017 at 05:17 AM.
    Big change is coming

  2. #12
    Cancerous autism in a can Eli Porter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
    The word capital can mean capital goods but also refers to the money needed to undertake any business venture. In practice, most businesses borrow money to undertake business activities because it is profitable to do so. The debt increases slowly while the asset hopefully sees a large increase in value. If this happens, the growth in asset value is sufficient to allow the loan to be repaid and leave a sizable profit.

    In practice, businesses and investors rely on borrowed money to operate. If they can achieve a capital gain (increase in the price of a physical asset), it is profitable to do it that way. If someone borrows money to buy an asset that is appreciating in value, then they own that asset and the capital gain belongs to them. On the other hand, if someone saves up money to buy an asset that is appreciating in value, they don't own the asset until they have saved up enough money so the capital gain and any income generated by that asset in that time does not belong to them.

    Let's say I inherited a house. I could rent out the house and save up the rental income until I had enough money to buy a second house and then keep repeating this process. If I did this, I'd pay a lot in tax and probably never be able to save up enough to buy a second house. That would be absolutely stupid. A smarter way to do it would be to use my first house as collateral and take out a bank loan to buy a second house and use the rental income of both houses to pay off the loan. If I was smart and bought at the bottom of the property cycle, the second house would appreciate in value and I could sell it at a future time and the growth in the value would allow me to pay off the loan in full and make a decent profit.

    There is an opportunity cost in not borrowing money because one misses out on claiming any growth in the asset value and income generated.



    Money is a tool but it is more than that. The money supply is growing, which suggests that money must be being created. Money is created out of thin air by central banks.

    Imagine that there is no money in existence. I borrow $1,000 from my bank to buy a pile of coconuts from you. The bank adds +$1,000 to my savings account and creates a loan account with a balance of -$1,000. There is still technically no money in the economy. I transfer the +$1,000 to your savings account at the same bank. The balance in my savings account is now $0 and my loan account has a balance of -$1,000. The total amount of money in the economy is still $0 if we count the +$1,000 in your savings account. Next, the bank adds interest to my loan account so the balance is now -$1,100. I have to repay the bank $1,100 or more but the only money available in this scenario is the $1,000 in your account. I could process the coconuts and sell them to you for $2,000 but you don't have enough funds to pay me $2,000, so you'd have to take out a bank loan to do so. Because loans must be repaid with interest, there is never enough money to repay all loans so new loans must be taken out to repay existing loans and more loans must be taken out to repay these loans.

    Economic growth creates opportunities to borrow money profitably, which allows previous debts to be repaid and keeps the system working smoothly. The money system relies on the expansion of debt, which relies on economic growth. The problem is that Western economies are fully developed so there are very few opportunities left for economic growth.

    At the moment, money is created from thin air by the elites and used as a tool to keep us in debt slavery. In future, I think there will be a UBI funded by money created by the elites from thin air. It will be used to control us because people deemed ideologically suspect won't be given one of the limited number of jobs and will have to rely on a modest UBI. This UBI may be reduced and restricted in the case of those deemed ideologically incorrect.



    I understand that there is a theory of what money is. However, in practice, I think money for people like you and me is just the right to buy and sell. Money is increasingly becoming an account balance stored on banks' hard drives combined with the authorization of the bank for a person to alter the balances of their own and other people's accounts (transfer money from one account to another). At present, banks authorize every electronic transfer as long as the account balance is sufficient. However, I can imagine that in future governments might impose requirements on banks to block transfers to and from some people (e.g. political dissidents), for certain goods or in certain locations. If this was the case, buying is not just a matter of having sufficient funds and selling is not just a matter of finding a willing buyer. People could potentially need the government's permission to buy or sell anything. When there is no cash and money is completely electronic, the state will really have us by the balls because it can dictate what we buy and sell.
    Oh nothing.
    "The Kentucky Derby is Decadent and Depraved"

  3. #13
    Senior Member Tetris Champion notdavidlynch's Avatar
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    Yes ... am I missing something? Of course is the obvious answer. I demand payment for my answer.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    Yeah it does... capitalism sucks.. or at least crony capitalism does, and that's all we've ever known...

    We do need to evolve.. the elites already know this and it's already in motion...

    It's the 4th Industrial Revolution.
    We're all going to be replaced by robots & AI.
    My soul doesn't like that...
    All truth passes through three stages:

    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.


  5. #15
    Senior Member Starjots's Avatar
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    What makes a particular job useful? That's the first question that needs to be answered.

    Also, useless jobs are not unique to capitalism.

  6. #16
    schlemiel Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starjots View Post
    What makes a particular job useful? That's the first question that needs to be answered.

    Also, useless jobs are not unique to capitalism.
    Right. Under non-capitalism, the feifs or autocrats dictate what is useful. Under capitalism, the market does.

  7. #17
    Mens bona regnum possidet ferrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinny View Post
    Yeah it does... capitalism sucks.. or at least crony capitalism does, and that's all we've ever known...
    I find this concept of 'crony capitalism' rather funny.

    Rent seeking has always existed, exists and will always exist. You either have it emerge from government, or it emerges from non-government sources such as cartels and monopolies. Not to say this is necessarily a bad thing, from one point of view a company has the obligation to rent seek if it can, and some forms of rent seeking can create buffers for what would be inefficient investments such as in Bell Labs in the 60s. Societies have always developed ways to embed rent seeking in order to propagate the economic advantages for certain families or groups, just as political systems have often been designed to propagate multi-generational power. But to say the form in which rent seeking happens now is somehow an aberration of how human societies work in some kind of utopian 'state of nature' that never existed say, in the height of laissez-faire 19th century is extremely naive in the extreme.
    Die Logik ist keine Lehre, sondern ein Spiegelbild der Welt. Die Logik ist transcendental. - Wittgenstein

  8. #18
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    Right. Under non-capitalism, the feifs or autocrats dictate what is useful. Under capitalism, the market does.
    Aren't you just swapping definitions for "market" here? Possibly a useful exercise as it leads to a slightly unorthodox lens to view the concept of "marketing".
    "Just because it's 2020 doesn't mean everyone has perfect vision."--catchphrase of a fictional comedian in some movie

  9. #19
    schlemiel Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Aren't you just swapping definitions for "market" here? Possibly a useful exercise as it leads to a slightly unorthodox lens to view the concept of "marketing".
    Mostly meant that anything is useful if people are willing to pay for it which affords a broader variety, but that also means being beholden to a system that incentivizes bullshit jobs.

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