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Thread: Universal Basic Income

  1. #41
    schlemiel Faust's Avatar
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    "All my heroes are dead" - John Zorn

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  2. #42
    a fool on a journey pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faust View Post
    Yeesh. They propose paying for UBI primarily by "raising taxes on corporate income". We're left to guess exactly what that means, and I'm unconvinced by the hand-wavy "profits are pointless", "private investment doesn't matter" etc. The details matter a lot, considering that we already have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

    It seems like discussing how nice a UBI and a society where not everyone has to work would be is kind of like discussing all the benefits of nobody having nuclear weapons. Sure, it would be great, but who's gonna go first and put themselves at such a disadvantage?

  3. #43
    Senior Member jyng1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    Yeesh. They propose paying for UBI primarily by "raising taxes on corporate income". We're left to guess exactly what that means, and I'm unconvinced by the hand-wavy "profits are pointless", "private investment doesn't matter" etc. The details matter a lot, considering that we already have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

    It seems like discussing how nice a UBI and a society where not everyone has to work would be is kind of like discussing all the benefits of nobody having nuclear weapons. Sure, it would be great, but who's gonna go first and put themselves at such a disadvantage?
    UBI is about proposing solutions not for when people don't have to work, but for when there is no work. Autonomous vehicles could get rid of 3.5 million truckers. Software could get rid of how many accountants? They're working on AI to get rid of legal grunt work, which will get rid of a bucket load of lawyers...

    American manufacturing has been booming... manufacturing workers haven't.

    The US has one of the highest statutory corporate tax rate in the OECD, but significant deductions and credits push corporate tax down from around 39% to an average of around 18% which is about middle of the road.

    Personally I think that every time we've got rid of a whole lot of jobs, we've been pretty good at inventing a whole lot more. Perhaps the greatest benefit of a UBI would be in helping people move from industry to industry? You'd also have to admit that there's a crap load of industries we'd be better off without.

  4. #44
    Speller AntisocialENTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeresaJ View Post
    Ok coming back to this article...



    So it appears that, if one can extrapolate from these examples... When talking about generational poverty in a post-industrial economy, even if UBI does not stimulate economic growth, it does have a real positive benefit on human welfare.

    There was another article I read that spoke about the positive impact of casino payments specifically on women's health. I thought I had saved it but now I can't find it anywhere.

    But that still leaves the contradiction between economic health and social health. My hunch is that, if you're improving education and health, then there would have to be a positive impact on the economy at some point (say that "the economy" is measured as percent of people in poverty) but it might take a couple of generations to manifest.

    And even if there's no net gain to the economy, if some people who would otherwise be hurting the society through manifestations of their own stress are just coasting by in less-stressful poverty instead, I still see that as a gain.

    @starla, thoughts?
    I think this article is discussing one tribe. Like I said before UBI as in per capita casino pay outs has had a varied impact. Sometimes very positive and other times very disastrous.

    For a personal example I just joined a tribe earlier this year, and through the help of the tribe, I will be able to go back to college without adding to my student loan debt. Netting a positive change in my life that is likely also helping the other 6000 some of which are in poverty. Secondly, the Casino existence has created 1000's of jobs, and there are plans to build another larger Casino soon. In such a relatively small population these Casino have the possibility to help a lot of needs.

    However, this is also likely aided by many facts.
    1. This Tribe officially formed their charters well after (the 1990s) many other tribes more established and used data from these others tribes to put themselves in a better place.
    2. It has kept it tribal membership relatively small on purpose.
    3. Most of the surrounding economy and tribal member were lower middle to middle class, to begin with.
    4. They have contingency plans to deal with possible pitfalls of their social programs. With a government body that can adapt quickly.

    I do think a larger government such as the US could implement a UBI they just need to wait a bit for other more adaptable and more stable economies iron out some of the kinks in the idea first.

    It would never be as simple as giving everyone a $1000 a month. Or what ever amount. There has to be more planning, and situational issues worked out.
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