Results 1 to 3 of 3

Thread: Delivery counts for something

  1. #1
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,821

    Delivery counts for something

    I read this excerpt from a David Hawkins book posted on a friend's facebook wall today:

    Aristotle however, did see a value in rhetoric in that the truth has to be presented properly in order for it to be accepted. In fact, he described in political/social/philosophical terms one of the basic tenets of consciousness research--that truth is a consequence not only of content but also of context.

    Thus, he described the ethical use of rhetoric as a means of effectively presenting truth, i.e. inclusion of not only dialectically correct logic (Logos) but also the integrity of the speaker (Ethos), and the quality of the audience (Pathos).

    While problematic philosophies and positionalities appear to emotionalize and utilize (via lower mind) the illogical cant of "pleading the case", the discipline and laws of the dialectic of science and reason are strict, demanding, and inflexible. Verifiable truth is independent of how one might 'feel' about it, which is irrelevant, personal and basically narcissistic and biased
    Seems to kind of contradict himself with that last line...but regardless, I thought it was well put.
    It actually brought to mind the previous thread on vaccinations, and how we discussed the need not only to be on the side of truth, but to be persuasive about it...how the problem is only exacerbated by the lack of effort to understand the integrity and quality of those on the anti-vax side of things.

    I think the same thing seems to happen when people start arguing about conspiracy theories...

    ...and perhaps part of the problem is that these subjects are seen as proverbial rabbit holes full of exceptions and excuses and hypotheticals that are too extensive to adequately rebut...but if that's the case, it might just be better to say nothing than to speak the truth in a way that's not going to be persuasive.


    Of course persuasion is its own can of worms, with a whole spectrum unto itself...from education to indoctrination; from unbiased exposure to crafty manipulation...so to simply be persuasive isn't necessarily the highest good and/or ethical, either...unless you think that the ends justifies the means.

    I wonder if principles from social psych (which is largely about manipulation/persuasion IMO) could be effectively used by invested parties in order to sway their opponents.
    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

  2. #2
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,157
    INTPx Award Winner
    No offense, but I think you've either misunderstood the last line, or all the preceding ones. I'm leaning toward the former--I can see a potential syntax error. I suspect you read it as the part beginning with 'which' reflecting on truth, but it is meant as elaboration on how what one might feel differs from verifiable truth. This is structurally recursive to the structure of the paragraph as the latter half of the second sentence has the same relationship to the first half as the second sentence to the first.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  3. #3
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,821
    I think my mistake was in assuming that he was still talking about acceptance depending on context and thus on the feelings of the listener...but yeah, it definitely isn't contradictory upon another read through. I enjoyed your break down of the sentence structure and whatnot. Thanks for that.

    In any case, while verifiable truth is independent of our feelings, the people we communicate with have 'em, and being able to penetrate past those feelings is nearly as important as the message itself, I think.
    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

Similar Threads

  1. Do you think your vote counts?
    By Delilah in forum The Playground
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 03-03-2014, 03:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •