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Thread: AI: Superintelligence - paths, dangers and strategies

  1. #61
    Pull the strings! Architect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utisz View Post
    ... but anyways.
    Zing, OK I didn't mean to say exactly. Depends on the exact meaning used for reason, at any rate.

    Getting back to an earlier point

    Humans have empathy because they evolved empathy in social groups because that was what was evolutionarily preferred for survival of the genes in question. So your argument seems to be that GAI would evolve empathy for the same advantageous reasons we evolved empathy. The general form of your argument is that GAI would evolve X for the same advantageous reasons we evolved X.

    We also evolved nipples though ...
    Important observation here, which is when evolution finds something that works it sticks with it. Nipples, yes, but actually humans didn't evolve them, but our rodent progenitor did and we inherited them. As did all mammals. When evolution finds a design that works it'll produce variations but won't change the blueprint much. Take eyes, I think there's only seven variations that are all pretty much the same across all species. This is because evolution is a mechanism that rewards success, and once it's found (and there's no apparent better alternatives) then it stops.

    So presuming empathy is evolutionarily developed, it's reasonable to expect it did so because it's a necessary evolutionary endpoint, because it works. Dinosaurs didn't have empathy, and they died out. Not saying they died off because of lack of empathy, but I think you get the point, which is this is a reasonable argument for the idea that consciousness isn't an arbitrary design.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Starjots's Avatar
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    Tencent Software Beats Go Champ, Showing China's AI Gains

    Professors who advised the Chinese government on the AI plan told the New York Times that Alphabet’s achievement was a “Sputnik moment” in which officials realized they lagged the US in a technology with broad commercial and military applications.
    Skippy, we have an allusion to the space race. Last time that happened humanity did the highly improbable and put a man on the moon.

  3. #63
    Member zago's Avatar
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    Superintelligence is very interesting, at least because I think it could happen biologically even if it doesn't happen through digital circuits.

    Gene engineering could go hockey-stick real fast. Not in seconds or minutes, but fast enough IMO to still be called an intelligence explosion.

    With AI, I have doubts. This whole idea seems to depend on epiphenomenalism (anyone can correct me here, I'm no expert), i.e. the lack of causal efficacy of consciousness. I don't believe that we understand consciousness and I see no reason to assume that digital circuits can be conscious. If someone thinks they can, then they need to tell me when that occurs and why. And if digital circuits can't be conscious, can they be superintelligent? Yes, apparently we've mastered Go and lots of video games... yet we still can't simulate the behavior of a nematode with 302 neurons. Seriously. Hm, seems like we've made 0 progress. I remember back in 2000 chatbots were every bit as good as they are now, that is they fucking suck.

    Hoping someone corrects me, really.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Starjots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Superintelligence is very interesting, at least because I think it could happen biologically even if it doesn't happen through digital circuits.

    Gene engineering could go hockey-stick real fast. Not in seconds or minutes, but fast enough IMO to still be called an intelligence explosion.
    Gene engineering would make a great what's happening over time thread.

    With AI, I have doubts. This whole idea seems to depend on epiphenomenalism (anyone can correct me here, I'm no expert), i.e. the lack of causal efficacy of consciousness. I don't believe that we understand consciousness and I see no reason to assume that digital circuits can be conscious. If someone thinks they can, then they need to tell me when that occurs and why. And if digital circuits can't be conscious, can they be superintelligent? Yes, apparently we've mastered Go and lots of video games... yet we still can't simulate the behavior of a nematode with 302 neurons. Seriously. Hm, seems like we've made 0 progress. I remember back in 2000 chatbots were every bit as good as they are now, that is they fucking suck.

    Hoping someone corrects me, really.
    Chatbots do suck.

    What is intelligence is obviously important question.

    It can be more generally described as the ability or inclination to perceive or deduce information, and to retain it as knowledge to be applied towards adaptive behaviors within an environment or context.
    Ok, good enough. In the context of games the environment or context is limited and the rules are simple and well known. These games exercise one aspect of human intelligence which is seen as challenging by humans except Candyland.

    Most human and animal intelligence is focused on getting food, not being food and making more of yourself. This is really complicated stuff in practice, especially when there are a bunch of other animals and plants out there doing their thing. This is not the sort of intelligence w.r.t. AI intelligence (seems more of a robot thing to me).

    The context of environment of interest is abstract human structures/organizations. These enable humans to do amazing things but are simpler, I think, than trying to stay alive on your own in the wild. These tend to be algorithmic (rules and procedures) and numerically data driven. There is an intelligence in these groups of humans which is, I think, most of what we take pride in when we talk about how smart humans are.

    This abstraction of groups of humans, I think is amenable to AI intelligence since it is has simpler rules, is more data driven and less perfected than individual human intelligence stuff.

  5. #65
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    People have decided that every human desire must be the result of evolution, so they work backwards to explain how things like art and religion are actually the result of evolution and are only convoluted mechanisms for survival. What makes an artificial process different from a natural one? If our consciousness only emerges from natural laws, how is it that the things created by our consciousness don't behave just like everything else created by natural processes?

  6. #66
    TJ TeresaJ's Avatar
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    I wonder what sort of take Lewis Mumford would have on all this. I really liked his idea of the origins of humanity: consciousness leading to forboding leading to language as a means to exorcise bad dreams.

  7. #67
    Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    People have decided that every human desire must be the result of evolution, so they work backwards to explain how things like art and religion are actually the result of evolution and are only convoluted mechanisms for survival. What makes an artificial process different from a natural one? If our consciousness only emerges from natural laws, how is it that the things created by our consciousness don't behave just like everything else created by natural processes?
    Are you saying that perhaps AI will be different from biological intelligence analogous to how airplane flight is different from bird flight?

    I suppose that is possible, but I'm not sure it implies anything about whether or not we're on the path.

  8. #68
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Are you saying that perhaps AI will be different from biological intelligence analogous to how airplane flight is different from bird flight?

    I suppose that is possible, but I'm not sure it implies anything about whether or not we're on the path.
    Perhaps that analogy works, in the sense that an airplane needs a human to direct it or it will never be or do anything. Also in the sense that an airplane will never experience or feel anything. Like any other tool it's just an extension of the will of a conscious being, and not in any way conscious.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Starjots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    People have decided that every human desire must be the result of evolution, so they work backwards to explain how things like art and religion are actually the result of evolution and are only convoluted mechanisms for survival.
    Reminds me of The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. Clearly, as you state, this sort of thinking has had a lot of impact.

    What makes an artificial process different from a natural one? If our consciousness only emerges from natural laws, how is it that the things created by our consciousness don't behave just like everything else created by natural processes?
    Since evolution is really just an algorithm with a few ingredients like overproduction, mutation, selection and so forth, certainly seems to me artificial evolution is possible. While Dawkins talks about memes, I think a more concrete example that might answer the question you pose is consumer products.

    In consumer products the environment that does the selecting is the consumers, the replicators are the manufacturers/makers, the resource that enables reproduction is money and the mutation is the various 'new and improved' variations of products etc.

    The products are created by our conscious minds but don't behave like products of natural evolution. The 9 multigrain bread which has supplanted white bread is not an animal. The latest iPhone or Samsung smartphone is not a living thing either. I think the reason is the environment is humans, not the natural environment. Then again, domestic animals have been artificially evolved but they start from living creatures.

    So I'd say in a way our products do behave in a sense - they have populations, thrive, go extinct and so forth from an extrinsic perspective but have no or limited behavior intrinsically. Then again, technology has begun to make smarter products which might have behaviors but these in are supposed to be in our service.

    So..... could it be our collective human desire to select for more 'behavioring' and 'human like' qualities in products is enough to drive their coming into existence? I'd say maybe yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Are you saying that perhaps AI will be different from biological intelligence analogous to how airplane flight is different from bird flight?

    I suppose that is possible, but I'm not sure it implies anything about whether or not we're on the path.
    Odd coincidence of recent article Planes donít flap their wings: does AI work like a brain?

  10. #70
    Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starjots View Post
    Oh people have been saying this analogy for a while now, I may have even gotten it from Bostrom.

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