View Poll Results: Can covering yourself in black bloc make you a conspirator to your group's crimes?

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Thread: Black Bloc Criminal Conspirators

  1. #11
    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jigglypuff View Post
    they’re attempting to charge 200 people based on “group liability” regardless of individual reasons for being there. max sentence for all the charges is 50 years in prison. yeah, it’s extreme. don’t agree with it.
    Well, I can't be bothered to listen to 10 minutes of a lobotomized moron on youtube, but if this is what's happening, the US proves once again that its police state tactics simply cannot cease to surprise me. Holy fuck.

    I wonder if that means you can send 200 cops to prison for 50 years because of the brutality of one agent at a demonstration. They're wearing the same uniform...
    Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent. - Mao

  2. #12
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    If you know that people in that group are gonna do illegal shit, and you go there and dress like them intending to help them do illegal shit in that way, even if you don't actually break anything yourself you bear some guilt.

    The real trick is going to be proving that that was true for any particular individual.

  3. #13
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
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    Association with people who commit crime is not a crime. You don't throw the whole team in the penalty box when the defenseman cross checks the opposing centerman in the face, even if the rest of the team thought it was awesome to see that cocky show off get knocked down a few pegs.

    You don't throw a whole gang in jail when one of them murders someone.

    Heck, much as the KKK is evil, I wouldn't throw someone in jail for being a member...only for actually committing a hate crime. Feeling hate is not a crime...
    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

  4. #14
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Aiding and abetting is a crime.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  5. #15
    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Aiding and abetting is a crime.
    I agree with robcore, mere association is not a crime.

  6. #16
    chaotic neutral shitpost
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    Well, I can't be bothered to listen to 10 minutes of a lobotomized moron on youtube, but if this is what's happening, the US proves once again that its police state tactics simply cannot cease to surprise me. Holy fuck.
    idk how it’s gonna go for the other J20 defendants, but i read that that just happened with the first group of 6, that the judge threw out “incitement to riot” which lessened the max charge to 50 years.

    it’s just fucking crazy.

    I wonder if that means you can send 200 cops to prison for 50 years because of the brutality of one agent at a demonstration. They're wearing the same uniform...
    this would be beautiful tbh.
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  7. #17
    Member Micawber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Aiding and abetting is a crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    I agree with robcore, mere association is not a crime.
    clearly a "gray area" issue here. Where mere association ends and aiding/abetting begins is not a simple equation.

    However, note this quote from oxygen's link:

    "There are circumstances, though, where presence itself implies participation such as when a thug stands near an extortion act or a lookout stands near a robbery. Id."

    The examples of a "thug" or a "lookout" point to the roles of membership, location, and appearance in distinguishing between association and aiding/abetting. An old lady entering the bank with her check wouldn't be accused of aiding/abetting. An old lady who wears the same mask as the robber and watches as he steals, on the other hand, we could reasonably assume to be involved in the illegal act by supporting it with affirmative conduct. The judgment hinges on her distinct appearance and apparent relationship: association and strongly implied participation merit a judgment of aiding/abetting.

    In the circumstances described, presence implies participation. It is not mere presence. It is the presence of people who resemble the criminals in their unusual style of clothing and apparent relationship.

    Perhaps you might argue that someone could be casually passing through the protest site while dressed head to toe in black...just a coincidence...but I find the odds of that happening to be minute.

    If a group protests unobtrusively and you happen to be dressed like them and in the same place that they are protesting, no need for concern. I believe this is true even in the group had been violent in past events. But if a group is violently rioting and you happen to be "coincidentally" dressed like them and in the same place, expect consequences, just like the robbery lookout.

  8. #18
    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    The lookout or robbery accomplice has more of a relationship with the people he'd assist, that would take some degree of relationship and coordination with one another.

    Wearing the same clothes of a publicly known group in the same place as them? Tenuous, this info is so public that there is no way to prove that any two people wearing that gear have any planned intentions to commit a crime together. It shows that they both want to look like antifa members, which people would like to make illegal.

  9. #19
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    @Micawber, on the nose.

    There is an interesting edge case even here though. D.B. Toober.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  10. #20
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    Tenuous, this info is so public that there is no way to prove that any two people wearing that gear have any planned intentions to commit a crime together.
    Yeah, and that's also kinda the point of wearing the stuff, to make it hard to prove anything. Somebody was violent but if enough people are dressed like that person then you can't pick them out and hold them accountable.

    Years ago there was a bank robbery in Seattle with an interesting set-up. The robber posted an ad on craigslist beforehand advertising some kind of blue collar job, and specifying that all the applicants needed to meet at a certain place at a certain time wearing a certain type and color of clothing. The robber wore that clothing and used the gathering as a successful distraction to escape. (he escaped on an inner tube, the whole thing is sure to become a movie)

    Now if those people who answered the ad had known his intentions, they'd be culpable. In this case they had no idea. But with black bloc, the whole point of dressing that way is to hinder criminal prosecution. That's where to me it gets harder to argue that these people are only guilty through association.

    On the other hand, the black bloc thing is kind of a trend now and I can see how plenty of people would just think that's the style, that's just how you dress to "show solidarity" or whatever.

    I dunno, I really don't. We don't want to have to make it illegal to cover your face in public like in France.

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