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Thread: On abortion

  1. #81
    Member DaDaMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    @Sistamatic, at the risk of spinning the compass again, and I acknowledge this goes afield, you made arguments about people whining rather than facing and dealing with the reality of their situation. This is an interesting meta view and I think it illuminates quite a few things, both good and blind.

    The good is that as a general life strategy, being able to knuckle down and accept the hand your dealt is a more winning strategy than balking. It explains why depression is alien to you too. In general active optimism yields better outcomes than depression and pessimism, largely because the active optimist spends more energy playing the game. Not playing is not a historically successful strategy.
    There is a fine line between optimism and stupidity. Its all good to be optimistic and hopeful when the risk is low but when you are talking about someones life then you need to draw a line between optimism and gambling.

    In looking at the unfairness of unwanted fatherhood and the attendant drain on resources, we need to look at what the real problem is: dependency. There are real and definite reasons the present view of paternal responsibility is as it presently is. It comes from denying women equivalent economic agency. That denial makes paternal fiscal responsibility a societal neccessity.

    If women were viewed as men are, potential breadwinners with mouths to feed, and paid accordingly as is often the justification for paying men more, if the other side of the pay gap coin, that women are a liability because of the expectation they will miss work or leave the workforce to care for their child were instead viewed as women having a greater familial responsibility and therefore justified in receiving better compensation so they could attend to those allegedly prized responsibilities, then the role of male wallets wouldn't be so onerous.

    Of course, getting to such a point becomes a sticky problem because as a rule, people are loathe to relinquish power. This applies not only to men who've been raised to see their role of patrician as birthright, but to women who would have little incentive to give up their current societal right to a portion of the bio-dad's paycheck, because more is more. Not that society has been all that discriminating on that count.
    The business of business is business. The wage gap between the sexes no longer exists. The profit motive of a business would incline a business to reward by merit irrespective of gender. Its also not the responsibility of business to enforce the measures you are suggesting.

    Other means such as providing allowances\grants to single mothers and those below a certain income threshold would be preferable. Ultimately though, its the responsibility or society\community, culture and family to create the necessary support structures.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Nowhere did I say you did. I described your attitude toward abortion. Which immediately after this response you re-affirmed:
    I think you are confusing yourself mate. You clearly said, "'m also not the one cavalierly acting as if an abortion was like taking an aspirin prophylactically against a future headache".

    I have repeatedly made it clear what my attitude towards abortion is, if you want to misconstrue it then please don't waste my time with any further dialogue.

    The follow-up is also priceless and quoted here for posterity:


    Then birth is always the greater evil, as it has already been established people are never prepared to raise a child.
    So you did a study and determined that people are never prepared to raise a child?

    So there is no difference between a couple that have been planning for a baby and have the financial means and support structure to raise a child vs a couple who did not plan for a child and don't have the financial means to raise a child? I don't think you know what you are talking about.

  2. #82
    Member DaDaMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    Which specific circumstances?
    OP <--

  3. #83
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaDaMan View Post
    I think you are confusing yourself mate.
    Nope. Do you know what "acting as if" means?
    [/I][/COLOR]I have repeatedly made it clear what my attitude towards abortion is, if you want to misconstrue it then please don't waste my time with any further dialogue.
    I'm not the one misconstruing. You've displayed the attitude I've called you out on. You want to pretend you didn't say the things I quoted, then yeah, we've nothing to talk about.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

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  4. #84
    Member DaDaMan's Avatar
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    Move along then.

  5. #85
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaDaMan View Post
    OP <--
    Your OP posited that it was up to both parents to decide. At some point we moved on to discussing circumstances in which the father would be "off the hook" for his offspring. I attempted to clarify whether or not you specifically meant that the father should not be responsible for the offspring in circumstances the mother chose to keep the baby against his wishes. You refer me now to the OP, but that muddies the conversation rather than clarifying it.
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

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  6. #86
    Senior Member Starjots's Avatar
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    First trimester should be a choice, morning after pills easily available. People have miscarriages all the time in the first trimester and nobody is calling nature a murderer. Third trimester should be out except extreme cases. Anybody who has sex should know if they are pregnant soon enough, the tools exist.

    As far as the Dad stuff, if a man chips in $$ to support (or is obligated to), he should have parental rights except in extreme circumstances. I don't buy that women are inherently superior to men for all phases of child raising. Eighteen years is a long road with a lot of phases.

    Of course, best approach if you can manage it is to get married and then have kids if that's your wish. Minimize surprises.

  7. #87
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starjots View Post
    if a man chips in $$ to support (or is obligated to), he should have parental rights except in extreme circumstances. I don't buy that women are inherently superior to men for all phases of child raising.
    Agreed. I think where we start having problems and arguments is when we use gender specific pronouns to determine rights and responsibilities that have nothing to do with gender. In the case of deciding an abortion, the physical location of the unborn child warrants a difference in level of choice. But after the kid is born, outside of breastfeeding, there is nothing a mom can do that a dad cannot. Societal gender roles create some biases for certain things, but moms aren't all incapable of throwing footballs and dads aren't incapable of cooing at a crying baby. When you consider the individual and complicated circumstances surrounding the raising of each individual child, there is no one size fits all solution. Automatically doling out rights/responsibilities according to gender is ridiculous.

    On the subject of equity of rights and responsibilities between parents, it's way more complicated than making sure both parents get the same size scoop of ice cream. One parent may not have money. One parent may not have time. One or both parents may have lots of both or none of either.

    Making sure each parent is treated fairly IS a consideration, but it isn't the only consideration, and it isn't the overriding consideration.

    Raising a kid who won't be the kind of person society is worse off for having is the overriding goal. Selfish parents have little chance of doing that. Sometimes single parents manage to work well together to accomplish the raising of a child, sometimes all they care about is whether or not it's fair for them to have to. Parents who put the latter before the former get no sympathy from me, regardless of their gender or whether they wanted a baby or not.
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

    I'm not avoiding socializing I'm helping socializing avoid me! --MoneyJungle

  8. #88
    Amen P-O's Avatar
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    Does life (personhood) begin at conception?... I don't think the answer to that question really matters.
    I think abortion is an immoral act without extenuating circumstances. There's just something gross and uncomfortable about it. I feel that having a society that participates in it is somehow degrading to our sense of who we are.

    That said, there are apparent social benefits that come with it being legal that might make up the difference (I would say the benefits likely do outweigh the drawbacks).... so I'm basically agnostic on the question of whether it should be legal, and when; although obviously we should prefer that it happen less for more developed babies.
    Violence is never the right answer, unless used against heathens and monsters.

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