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Thread: free will

  1. #21
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    If you want to change your understanding, ask yourself different questions.
    You winsome, you loathsome.
    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  2. #22
    Member mark esparza's Avatar
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    There is an idea behind my stupid question concerning the possibility free will is an illusion. Maybe Determinism is part of the same illusion. What if we do not have free will yet but it is a possibility. This will sound stupid but what if there was a privileged group of people who have kept the wealth and power of the world by controlling information and its distribution. Some of you have said the decisions we make are based on what we learn. what if all the religions have been a great way to keep us separated from each other in an attempt keep us from seeing the truth. Brainwashing us so the rich can take everything from us. How else would we watch them live like gods wile people are starving to death and no one even thinks twice on how perverted this is. the fact that they can live like that knowing people suffer would suggest these are animals. We are being taken. If we all were to see determinism as real then maybe at that moment we would have free will. If we controlled not information but the release of information.

  3. #23
    Member mark esparza's Avatar
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    It is sad that you assume the possibility of me not asking as many questions as I can think of

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark esparza View Post
    It is sad that you assume the possibility of me not asking as many questions as I can think of
    I didn't say ask yourself more questions. I said ask yourself different questions. Perhaps it would be clearer to say, ask yourself your usual question but in a different way. It's easy to fall into query habits. The hippocampus is both fuzzy and nuanced. Shifts in how you ask a question can and will result in changes in what is remembered.
    You winsome, you loathsome.
    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  5. #25
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    How could you live and believe in hard determinism? How would you so much as chose what you had for lunch or what colour shirt to put on in the morning? How would you accept responsibility for your actions? Doesn't matter if I just walk up to this guy over here and stab him to death - it was pre-determined and I had no free will. You wouldn't be able to learn anything from anything that's happened or the mistakes you'd made, because you had no will of your own. It was all pre-determined.

    Accepting that you had a choice, and still have a choice, is the only way to improve yourself and quit making the same mistakes. Determinism is far too defeatist for me to really take seriously.

  6. #26
    Member mark esparza's Avatar
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    why do people always come back with the somebody stabbing some one going out of there way to miss the point you do not have the choice of what you believe and to prove it I know for a fact you could not believe in determinism if you wanted to. As far as stabbing people determinism would prevent people from hurting each other.

  7. #27
    Member mark esparza's Avatar
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    and I know you don't know what I mean when I say that cause it is you that haven't asked enough questions or ever considered being wrong.

  8. #28
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    The stabbing analogy remains a perfectly good hypothetical illustration of the concept of free will, but any harm to another or any crime would suffice for that purpose. Determinism states that everything is preordained, and that is why we don't have free will. Which means fundamentally that we are not responsible for our actions.

    Determinism does not prevent people from stabbing eachother - watch the news. People stab eachother all the time. No unnatural force seems to prevent it, and the attacker (if caught) is, and should be, held accountable for their actions.

    I also used the most mundane of choices - what to have for lunch or what to wear in the morning. I used those illustrations because determinism has no explanation for why today I chose to wear a blue t-shirt and yesterday it was a black t-shirt. If I have no free will, why don't I wear the same thing everyday?

    As for your illustration of the freedom to chose what to believe - it proves nothing, it's merely 2 possibilities based on which you currently believe. Either you can chose what to believe because you have the free will to either accept or dismiss new information or you do not and you're beliefs are pre-determined. Which is insane, because people's beliefs change as they go through life and learn new things. The fact that your illustration fails to convince me that determinism is correct only Illustrates that it is not an argument sufficient enough to convince me.
    Last edited by Revenant; 01-07-2018 at 04:11 PM.

  9. #29
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    The reason the arguement doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It's an attempt at a catch 22 question - either I change my opinion and accept that I have no free will, or I do not and you say this is because I am incapable of it because I haven't the free will to do so and am pre-determined to believe in free will. But that's not how it works. Even if I convinced you to change your perspective, it's arguable that you were pre-determined to change your opinion at that moment in time and believe in free will. That's because it's not a rational or useful belief to have. It's a nihilist excuse to not accept responsibility, in my opinion. You'd have to accept being the victim of fate in everything that happened or every mistake you made. And that serves no purpose.

    It's far more useful to believe you change the outcome, that you have control. Granted, you can't control everything because everyone else around you has there own choices to make, and there are many random things that happen that mean we haven't the choice of whether some things happen, but we have the choice of how to react and have many choices to make on how we deal with them.

  10. #30
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Another interesting example of how a meta shift in one's question, semantic sidestep, can yield new insight. While determinism has, at best, no value as a philosophy to work from, it does have value as a Shibboleth.
    You winsome, you loathsome.
    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

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