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Thread: Becoming a Multi-Planetary Species

  1. #121
    Senior Member Senseye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    I mean, if I didn't need money to acquire raw materials, I'd spend my days making shit and I'd have no problem handing them off to people for the asking. This is true for a surprisingly large number of people judging from all the software work people do for free, doctors without borders, all sorts of volunteerism all over is clearly limited not by the goodwill and generosity of people, but by the rampant, indoctrinated need for money. And who does this need serve? Our masters.
    A surprising number of people in the sense it's greater than zero. Even generously estimating, I can't see even 1% of the population laboring out of pure altruism or 'love of doing their thing'. Even volunteers generally work when it suits them. If ditches need to be dug, most people will need compensation to do so, especially when the consequences of not volunteering are zero.

  2. #122
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    To be clear, this 'natural law' I'm implying is that we expect people to contribute in a valuable way.

    Anthropologically, they can look at small groups of people and see that this works by trading with each other individually. You trade things of equal value. Family units help each other out. Gifts are exchanged.

    If someone never gives you a gift in return, you would wonder why. Maybe he's just not into giving gifts. That's fine. Most people would stop giving them a gift (not to be nasty, but to be equitable). If you have a family member who always asks for help but never helps out anyone else, people eventually get 'pissed off', and they will talk to that person 'get your shit together, you're being an arsehole'.

    If you have a friend who only ever talks about themself and never seems interested in you, then you get bored. It's unequal. Unbalanced. This is a natural law of 'the universe'. The reason for this law to exist is self-evident: if someone only takes, then eventually you run out of things to give. Unfortunately most resources (including our time and physical labour) are finite.

    In prehistoric times people would exchange labour. Some people help you build a house, because they're skilled in that. You help them with something else. It's not explicitly worked out (partly perhaps because literacy didn't exist), but it's fairly clearly an exchange based on the idea of equal value.

    ---

    As groups of people get bigger, trading specific things between individuals becomes inefficient. I want an i7 processor. I can't trade anything directly with the thousands of people who are responsible for that existing. Money is created. We can trade things more efficiently.

    ---

    All these other issues you bring up about money are other issues. Corruption, etc. Money is an abstract representation of value.

    You think there wouldn't be corruption still if we got rid of money?

    ---

    If we get rid of money, people will still get 'pissed off' if some people work less than others, while receiving the same benefits. And therefore people will still have it in their mind that they want to trade their efforts for equal value. Therefore they'd most likely revert back to a system of money.

    In my opinion, the only way we could get rid of money is if we were to have a society of limitless abundance, where we could all have as much of anything as we want. I don't know if it's even really a psychological thing where we should stop striving to have 'more' of things. If i7's were free, I think I could do some interesting things by taking 10 of them and stringing them together or something. But obviously we don't have enough abundance for that, so it's better that we say "if that is so valuable to you, then work harder so you can produce the equivalent of that value and then trade for it".

    ---

    I think what you're really arguing against is the systems we've built up around money.

  3. #123
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senseye View Post
    A surprising number of people in the sense it's greater than zero. Even generously estimating, I can't see even 1% of the population laboring out of pure altruism or 'love of doing their thing'. Even volunteers generally work when it suits them. If ditches need to be dug, most people will need compensation to do so, especially when the consequences of not volunteering are zero.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarydoor View Post
    To be clear, this 'natural law' I'm implying is that we expect people to contribute in a valuable way.

    Anthropologically, they can look at small groups of people and see that this works by trading with each other individually. You trade things of equal value. Family units help each other out. Gifts are exchanged.

    If someone never gives you a gift in return, you would wonder why. Maybe he's just not into giving gifts. That's fine. Most people would stop giving them a gift (not to be nasty, but to be equitable). If you have a family member who always asks for help but never helps out anyone else, people eventually get 'pissed off', and they will talk to that person 'get your shit together, you're being an arsehole'.

    If you have a friend who only ever talks about themself and never seems interested in you, then you get bored. It's unequal. Unbalanced. This is a natural law of 'the universe'. The reason for this law to exist is self-evident: if someone only takes, then eventually you run out of things to give. Unfortunately most resources (including our time and physical labour) are finite.

    In prehistoric times people would exchange labour. Some people help you build a house, because they're skilled in that. You help them with something else. It's not explicitly worked out (partly perhaps because literacy didn't exist), but it's fairly clearly an exchange based on the idea of equal value.

    ---

    As groups of people get bigger, trading specific things between individuals becomes inefficient. I want an i7 processor. I can't trade anything directly with the thousands of people who are responsible for that existing. Money is created. We can trade things more efficiently.

    ---

    All these other issues you bring up about money are other issues. Corruption, etc. Money is an abstract representation of value.

    You think there wouldn't be corruption still if we got rid of money?

    ---

    If we get rid of money, people will still get 'pissed off' if some people work less than others, while receiving the same benefits. And therefore people will still have it in their mind that they want to trade their efforts for equal value. Therefore they'd most likely revert back to a system of money.

    In my opinion, the only way we could get rid of money is if we were to have a society of limitless abundance, where we could all have as much of anything as we want. I don't know if it's even really a psychological thing where we should stop striving to have 'more' of things. If i7's were free, I think I could do some interesting things by taking 10 of them and stringing them together or something. But obviously we don't have enough abundance for that, so it's better that we say "if that is so valuable to you, then work harder so you can produce the equivalent of that value and then trade for it".

    ---
    So we're agreed then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Money is a psychological problem, not an engineering or logistical one.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarydoor
    I think what you're really arguing against is the systems we've built up around money.
    That seems reasonable.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by BarIII View Post
    Human space travel is a waste of resources.
    Why? What length of view do you take on humanity?
    Quote Originally Posted by mara View Post
    my crime is that i disrupted the echo chamber

  5. #125
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    I'll just leave this here.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  6. #126
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    But various anthropologists have pointed out that this barter economy has never been witnessed as researchers have traveled to undeveloped parts of the globe.
    The fact that they're undeveloped means they're small enough that they don't need money.

    "If you were a baker who needed meat, you didn’t offer your bagels for the butcher’s steaks. Instead, you got your wife to hint to the butcher’s wife that you two were low on iron, and she’d say something like “Oh really? Have a hamburger, we’ve got plenty!” Down the line, the butcher might want a birthday cake, or help moving to a new apartment, and you’d help him out."
    I bought a new laptop a week ago on Amazon. At checkout, this option didn't exist. "later on, I will make you, Amazon, a birthday cake in exchange for this laptop you're sending me". I wonder why.

    I still can't see how I'm meant to get a new laptop without money.

    "But if you consider that other, completely different systems existed, then money starts to look like less of a natural outgrowth of human nature, and more of a choice. "
    Article doesn't say what these completely different systems are, besides vague system of complementary favours or having the village elders decide what everyone should get.

    Then again, it’s one thing to keep a community alive and well when everyone’s camping in a forest and they’ve all opted in to that vision. It’s quite another to imagine a gift economy enabling humans to build skyscrapers, invent iPhones, put air conditioners in every house, and explore space.
    Yeah, I agree.

  7. #127
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Ideology is a mindfuck.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Ideology is a mindfuck.
    You're just wrong on this one.

  9. #129
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarydoor View Post
    You're just wrong on this one.
    Maybe. But I'm less wrong.

    I don't even know what you think I'm wrong about to be honest.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  10. #130
    Married Mouth-breather JohnClay's Avatar
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    @Hephaestus:
    Elon Musk on the Simpsons talking about money:
    https://youtu.be/dp8N1SCreyM?t=2m28s
    "I don't care about the money. The whole monetary system is just a series of interconnected heterogeneous databases."

    A related thing from the Big Bang Theory:
    https://youtu.be/tEETj-wURck?t=42s
    "...it feels great to come down here and help the less fortunate huh?"

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