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Thread: How can an N get along better with SJ?

  1. #11
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Yeah, S-types like to see pictures and examples. I struggled to explain to my teammates for like ten minutes the other day how running a hose from a release valve at the top of a soft ballast tank to a spot near its bottom wouldn't work until I finally drew a picture and walked them through what would happen.

  2. #12
    eyeing you rabbit warrior kitsune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Give them tangible proof when you want to convince them. That way, you don't waste time articulating reasoning that they are just going to ignore anyway.
    That's actually my biggest issue. We're producing a 5-minute TV documentary for class. They were great when it came to production-related tasks: making appointments with interview partners, transcribing, fetching books from the library, etc. But when it comes to the artistic stuff, the editing, they're driving me nuts. Can't really give them tangible proof for a concept. Film editing is like collaging. You cut out all your favorite parts, throw them on a timeline and start experimenting, moving clips around to see and hear and feel what looks good together. You start with a basic idea and work towards it, but know the final product may be totally different. They want deadlines and want to know when it will be finished. But editing, especially in an essayistic style, is an organic process. You work on it and work on it and work on it and at some point, it just feels finished. You don't really even see the end coming. It's just suddenly done. You watch it; you like it; and there's just nothing left to change, to fix. Or the deadline arrives and you just turn it in as it is in whatever state it may be.

    There are two SJs in the group. I'm outnumbered. I have no idea what the third girl is because she never says a word.

    SJs ignoring reason has to be the most frustrating thing in the world. I told them I preferred to meet in the coffee shop next door since our university doesn't allow dogs in the building and if we were going to be working for five or more hours, I didn't want to leave my dog at home alone. They not only didn't respond, they completely ignored it. While I'm at the coffee shop with dog and 20 lbs. of editing equipment, they are at the university sending me text messages that I should come over because they don't believe the university is so strict. I'm pissed that I have to spend an extra five minutes of my time logging into our slow-ass campus e-mail system to find and forward a written e-mail from the building manager stating dogs are not allowed in the building. They continue to argue I should come over, writing that if we get kicked out of the university for having a dog, they'll move to the coffee shop. I argue in return that if they're willing to move later, why not move now? In order to convince them in the end, I had to give them way more information than they deserved. That the building manager and I have become good friends over the years. She shows me pictures of her granddaughter. She knows I have a dog. I have verbal confirmation from her that dogs are not allowed in the building. She knows that I know that I'm not allowed to bring my dog. That it has to do with breaking trust. That I don't want to damage my relationship. They eventually came over to the coffee shop, but I resent that they fought me so hard on this.

    I'm the only one in the group with any film experience, but it doesn't seem to matter to them. This issue of them not believing me has occurred multiple times now.

    Honestly, I can't tell if the failure to get along really is an N to SJ conflict, or if it's just a general lack of mutual respect combined with their need to dominate me and my resistance to being dominated.

    "
    'I cannot play with you,' the fox said. 'I am not tamed.'" - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince (1943)

    REMINDER TO SELF WHEN DEALING WITH THE RABBIT WARRIOR: "All warfare is based on deception." - Sun Tzu,
    The Art of War

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    That's actually my biggest issue.
    We're producing a 5-minute TV documentary for class.
    They were great when it came to production-related tasks:
    making appointments with interview partners, transcribing, fetching books from the library, etc.
    But when it comes to the artistic stuff, the editing, they're driving me nuts.
    You philestine!!!
    As if painting by numbers upon rectangular strips Vivisected from Kairos not unlike Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs were not `artistic stuff'?

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    Can't really give them tangible proof for a concept.
    A fools erand.
    One can only present `evidence';
    You can't interpret the evidence for them; and THEY usurp the roll of adjudicating what is admissible and what constitututes `proof'.


    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    Film editing is like collaging.
    And day-planner, itinerary, and calender editing are also like collaging.
    Imagine having strips of ticker tape which can be spliced together with that clear plastic tape every beaurcrat has available along with paper clips and personalized coffee cup.
    Is not taping rectangular strips together end-to-end not artistic collaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    You cut out all your favorite parts, throw them on a timeline and start experimenting, moving clips around to see and hear and feel what looks good together.
    Oooops!
    Once you have a timeline you allow the camel's nose in the tent.
    Now the philestines who paint-by-numbers with rectangles of parchment vivisected from Kairos can squat and occupy turf ... at the ready with more rectangles representing activity over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    You start with a basic idea and work towards it, but know the final product may be totally different.
    They want deadlines and want to know when it will be finished.
    And sensative, humanistic NF/idealist you don't have the heart to tell then, "Only after you and those like you have fired yourselves and stopped harassing the TALENT actually capable of furthering the objectives of the project."?

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    But editing, especially in an essayistic style, is an organic process.
    Ahhh ... I found the problem: SJs excell in issuing executive bureaucratic findings and fiats.
    The only known art form at which they excel is Vogon poetry more akin to a water boarding.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    You work on it and work on it and work on it and at some point, it just feels finished.
    Excelent! Your process mimics SJ process exactly.
    However SJ process is intrinsically Procrustean in that it prostrates one-and-all to The Rules, The Time Table, The Deadlines as per selective enforcement wherein their family, friends, and political cronies may be granted humanism-simulated easements, permits, allowances, exceptions, etc., etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    You don't really even see the end coming.
    It's just suddenly done.
    You watch it; you like it;
    and there's just nothing left to change, to fix.
    Yep. A creative loop.
    I used to use an airbrush to apply black paint to gold-plated crystals used as laser detectors.
    Once it came to someone's attention that the response times of the units I painted were faster than those who had done the job before me I was requested by `management' to produce a `process sheet'.
    As if the loop I manifested could be either described with mere words then replicated.
    I started the process and stopped when it SEEMED done ... nothing left to change, fix, or improve.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    Or the deadline arrives and you just turn it in as it is in whatever state it may be.
    And the SJs which value arbitrary and capricious deadlines MORE THAN QUALITY will do what?

    The best example I've seen of an individual who had learned to cope with SJ deadlines was an INTP professor who applied for grants, submitted deadlines when he won them, etc.
    Unbeknownst to the bureaucrats he had done all the work and gotten the results BEFORE he even applied for the grant.
    He spoon fed them evidence consistent with their deadlines as they required, demands, and simply couldn't operate without.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    There are two SJs in the group.
    I'm outnumbered.
    Quick!!! How many half wits make a full wit?
    Simple math doesn't work in such matters.
    You may be outnumbered but not out-talented.
    The issue is how much influence they have to distract you, affect those who will assess/judge/grade your project, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    I have no idea what the third girl is because she never says a word.
    Ummmm ... duh ... An Introvert!
    If you want her speak then take her aside and talk to her one on one.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    SJs ignoring reason has to be the most frustrating thing in the world.
    I told them I preferred to meet in the coffee shop next door since our university doesn't allow dogs in the building and if we were going to be working for five or more hours, I didn't want to leave my dog at home alone.
    They not only didn't respond, they completely ignored it.
    Ummm ... what does your expression of preferences have to do with reason with respect to SJ Procrustean Beds?
    You don't have to LIKE it, you just have to DO it ... and to their time tables.
    The beatings will continue until morale improves.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    While I'm at the coffee shop with dog and 20 lbs. of editing equipment, they are at the university sending me text messages that I should come over because they don't believe the university is so strict.
    I'm pissed that I have to spend an extra five minutes of my time logging into our slow-ass campus e-mail system to find and forward a written e-mail from the building manager stating dogs are not allowed in the building.
    They continue to argue I should come over, writing that if we get kicked out of the university for having a dog, they'll move to the coffee shop.
    I argue in return that if they're willing to move later, why not move now?
    In order to convince them in the end, I had to give them way more information than they deserved.
    That the building manager and I have become good friends over the years.
    She shows me pictures of her granddaughter.
    She knows I have a dog.
    I have verbal confirmation from her that dogs are not allowed in the building.
    She knows that I know that I'm not allowed to bring my dog.
    That it has to do with breaking trust.
    That I don't want to damage my relationship.
    They eventually came over to the coffee shop, but I resent that they fought me so hard on this.
    Here's how I work with SJs in a group setting: I DON'T.
    I used to play team trivia with partners: I stopped.
    When I started playing solo I could factor the influence of fuckwits OUT of the process.
    As much as it saddens me that anyone involved in a creative endeavor is saddled with SJ team mates I don't know what to advise.
    In real life it's best to pit OUR SJs versus THEIR SJs whether its in world war 1 trenches or OUR bureaucrats versus THEIR bureaucrats in a way which keeps them distracted so actual productive work and be accomplished.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    I'm the only one in the group with any film experience, but it doesn't seem to matter to them.
    This issue of them not believing me has occurred multiple times now.
    Such a shame that your NF word magic doesn't work on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    Honestly, I can't tell if the failure to get along really is an N to SJ conflict, ...
    Whoa!!!
    As if all Ns were the same?
    NF/Idealists are notorious for conflict avoidance.
    The ENT types not so much so.
    So ... make friends with an ENTJ field marshal to run interference for you.

    You're far too diplomatic, I'm sure.
    And whether you know it or not you're codependent enabling parasites who may go on to exploit more people creative enough to get the work done while hobbled, constrained, and parasitized by `management'.

    BTW, if they're behaving particularly imperious and obnoxious with their managerial impositions you can ask them, "What's the first myth of management?"
    You can politely wait for whatever answers they provide.
    The only CORRECT answer is, "That it EXISTS."

  4. #14
    Member mthomps's Avatar
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    It's school. Play the game if you want that piece of paper.

  5. #15
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    Take #2 *sound of clapper board*

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    That's actually my biggest issue.
    We're producing a 5-minute TV documentary for class.
    They were great when it came to production-related tasks: making appointments with interview partners, transcribing, fetching books from the library, etc.
    But when it comes to the artistic stuff, the editing, they're driving me nuts.
    Can't really give them tangible proof for a concept.
    I accept that it may and has FELT this way for you.
    Though I suspect that this mindset is holding you back.
    Every SJ/Traditionalist I've ever met knows to the depths of the vacuum which occupies the space were a soul would reside in an iNtuitive that Higher Powers -- EG higher in every institution they can imagine -- `accept as proof' or not as per the caprice of their higher-than-those-below-them Power.
    I'm sure that your now-ex military father informed you that R.H.I.P -- Rank has it's Privileges.
    A way to get this burden of proof of YOUR back is to Pile it on THEIRS.
    If they reject your process-oriented methods simply de-focus the attention a single grand-united team effort where they somehow HAVE TO count on your experience and creativity.

    Ever worked on a jigsaw puzzle with someone?
    This seems a better metaphor than collaging ... though perhaps can be used in conjunction with.
    SJs may suck at visionary glimpses of The Big Picture which iNtuitives seem able to generate ... BUT ...
    They can generally find the puzzle pieces which have flat edges and start working on the boundaries -- they LOVE closure, right? -- and frame whatever picture will emerge within the framework.

    I teased a bit in take #1 about similarities between splicing film and splicing lengths of ticker tape to form schedules.
    BUT ... think about it ... what if the the SJs were tasked with coming up with text which describes snippets of film/video?
    Think mutlit-rack recording/editing equipment here.
    If they have busy work in generating narrative and this can be layed down on a parallel track then something akin to a storyboarding Kit arises/emerges.
    They'll be busy and off YOUR back and the team will have a more robust set of metadata which corresponds to your raw footage.

    If they run out of busy work you may experience another problem: the stultifying lack of creativity and vision which you as an NF just exude.
    What I'm about to suggest IS decidedly geeky and technical, BUT ... I'm an NT, albeit an enneagram 5 with artsy 4 wing.
    Were your raw data numeric rather than pictoral you might get them to use cluster analysis to find patterns which they can't SEE as you can with artistic vision.
    So, what other methods might be used by the deaf, dumb, and blind to stumble over possibly artistic sequencing of snippets of video/film?
    N Factorial experiment design CAN.
    Yes, this dorky, geeky and counter intuitive to an NF/idealist ... but perhaps NOT to an SJ/Traditionalist with low creativity by strong desire to obtain profitable results above and beyond their lamentable artistic abilities.
    And if nothing else, if you provide them with links to the information and they follow them and perhaps try to implement them it will be busy work which gets them off your back for a while.


    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    Film editing is like collaging.
    You cut out all your favorite parts, throw them on a timeline and start experimenting, moving clips around to see and hear and feel what looks good together.
    You start with a basic idea and work towards it, but know the final product may be totally different.
    They want deadlines and want to know when it will be finished. But editing, especially in an essayistic style, is an organic process.
    You work on it and work on it and work on it and at some point, it just feels finished.
    You don't really even see the end coming.
    It's just suddenly done. You watch it; you like it; and there's just nothing left to change, to fix.
    Or the deadline arrives and you just turn it in as it is in whatever state it may be.

    Oh! That's how it's supposed to work?
    When I worked as a projectionist I used to splice film.
    However if I put Humpty Dumpty back together again in any sequence other than as the production company released it ...
    You get the picture.
    BTW ... those who have gone to movies with me watched me predict a scene change at the end of a reel with clairvoyant accuracy as I count it down silently with my fingers.
    My brain never lost the automatic ability to notice the film-reel change-over dots spaced 10 seconds apart.
    For the untrained there MUST be some sort of magic afoot.

    I also worked with a guy doing video production for a company back in the late 80's and early 90's
    I became familiar with time tracks and mutitrack recording as useful for compositting the final cut.

    I also get how stop action animation is done by daisy chaining single frames/snap_shots end to end to form a continuous sequence exploitive of persistence of vision.

    Would I want one-or-more SJs injected into MY process? Hell no!!
    But ... as per the gold to be data mined from System Antics "Systems work best when designed to run down hill."
    If they naturally work with text, then get them working on captions for chunks of that raw data!!!
    Allow them to schedule their OWN time, their own meetings which allow you and quiet girl to actually DO while they're talking about doing.
    If you notice what they each seem to automatically DO when left to their own devices then options emerge.
    You can't teach a cat to bark like a St. Bernard, but you CAN toss it a mechanical mouse or kitty toy to exploit it's natural patterns.
    Get them thinking about how their sacred traditions might be promoted by the finished product ... THEN ever so evilly bring to their attention how it would be boring as hell and would sell less product.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfjapanese View Post
    I have no idea what the third girl is because she never says a word.
    You MIGHT have an ally ... especially if an INxx.
    She may respond similarly to the impositions of the Sensates, the extroverts, the (mis)managers.
    Once again, I recommend that you go one-on-one.
    Introverts tend towards depth over breadth; this girl may have the depth of concentration and focus that the schedulers simply don't.
    As an introvert myself I'm imagining that this quiet girl might have more potential than the time wasters who do little more than attempt to bend you to their collective will.

    end of take #2 *sound of clapper board. elapsed time and frame count displayed*
    Last edited by gps; 02-02-2014 at 07:09 AM.

  6. #16
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    Refuse to work in a group until the school remove you from these annoying classes. If you dig your heels in enough, without actually hurting or damaging anything, eventually they will just let you work on your own.

  7. #17
    eyeing you rabbit warrior kitsune's Avatar
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    ^ Because of the age difference, I can and should insist more often on working alone.

    "
    'I cannot play with you,' the fox said. 'I am not tamed.'" - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le Petit Prince (1943)

    REMINDER TO SELF WHEN DEALING WITH THE RABBIT WARRIOR: "All warfare is based on deception." - Sun Tzu,
    The Art of War

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