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Thread: Jordan Peterson

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeresaJ View Post
    I don't know enough about Peterson to say how well this applies to our refutes his arguments, but IMO this is a very succinct and accurate summation of our current state.
    Cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    Welcome to the forum.
    Heh nice avatar. I may have shown my hand too early.

    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    How you do you come up with this dollar amount for "social value"?

    What is the evidence that "white men are the only ones in society who still believe in natural hierarchy"? That sounds like racist nonsense.

    From research papers that I can dig out if you like, but I kinda don't see how could it be otherwise. Advertising is aimed at creating irrational, uninformed consumers, lobbying consists in corporations bidding for public goods at discount prices, and unregulated financial capital eats the real capital it speculates on. The best paper I saw estimated that advertising destroys $15 for each dollar earned while finance was only 7 or 9 or something, but people in finance must make ten times what people in advertising do, so it's more damage overall.

    Well, I guess it's more about believing in the meritocracy than in natural hierarchy, which is a separate issue. Whether virtuous people have the most social capital is a different question from the degree to which our systems are meritocratic, efficient or arbitrary. Without getting into identity politics too much, we can just say that many people believe in the meritocracy while expecting to derive a lot of their meaning or status from their work or income, and now in the US, the average gen xer has no retirement funds, 1/3 millennials live in poverty, and the average household savings are something like 200k while median household savings are 7k (down 2k in the last year), so the future looks rough, and doubling down on the meritocratic ideology is probably not the right move. Pairing this ideology with an 'embrace your suffering' ethos seems more than a little puritanical. And even Aristotle noticed back in the day that democracy and stark inequality aren't compatible and all that.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaredson View Post
    From research papers that I can dig out if you like, but I kinda don't see how could it be otherwise. Advertising is aimed at creating irrational, uninformed consumers, lobbying consists in corporations bidding for public goods at discount prices, and unregulated financial capital eats the real capital it speculates on. The best paper I saw estimated that advertising destroys $15 for each dollar earned while finance was only 7 or 9 or something, but people in finance must make ten times what people in advertising do, so it's more damage overall.
    How is the dollar amount for "social value" calculated? I don't need a research paper, just an idea of how one would estimate that number.

    Well, I guess it's more about believing in the meritocracy than in natural hierarchy, which is a separate issue. Whether virtuous people have the most social capital is a different question from the degree to which our systems are meritocratic, efficient or arbitrary. Without getting into identity politics too much, we can just say that many people believe in the meritocracy while expecting to derive a lot of their meaning or status from their work or income, and now in the US, the average gen xer has no retirement funds, 1/3 millennials live in poverty, and the average household savings are something like 200k while median household savings are 7k (down 2k in the last year), so the future looks rough, and doubling down on the meritocratic ideology is probably not the right move. Pairing this ideology with an 'embrace your suffering' ethos seems more than a little puritanical. And even Aristotle noticed back in the day that democracy and stark inequality aren't compatible and all that.
    I was specifically questioning your point about race. You said:
    Are white men miserable? Yeah, sure, they're the only ones in society who still believe in natural hierarchy, and that's why deaths of despair are at record levels for them. The average life expectancy is actually dropping for the first time in hundreds of years because of it. Minority men know the deal, that the game is rigged, so they're not all on the edge of an oxy addiction or suicide, unlike blue-collar whites who feel the need to seppuku it up as soon as they besmirch their honour by failing the Reaganite social contract.
    That sounds like racist garbage.

  3. #363
    TJ TeresaJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    How is the dollar amount for "social value" calculated? I don't need a research paper, just an idea of how one would estimate that number.


    I was specifically questioning your point about race. You said:

    That sounds like racist garbage.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicid..._United_States

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and surmise that he didn't mean it in a deterministic, certain way but rather in a population-descriptive sort of way, ie White males in the United States are disproportionately inclined to commit suicide.

    And I think it is because of despair. Not just white males but the afflictions of the white working class in general. For a couple of generations in the twentieth century it seemed like they were actually getting somewhere with nothing but hard work, honesty, and gumption, and then they had the rug pulled out from underneath them. The relatively lower classes didn't have those expectations of increasing - or at least not sinking - quality of life to begin with.
    Too bad, Lady Une. You were far too lenient.
    As a soldier, yes. But as a civilian I lived an austere life.

  4. #364
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeresaJ View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicid..._United_States

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and surmise that he didn't mean it in a deterministic, certain way but rather in a population-descriptive sort of way, ie White males in the United States are disproportionately inclined to commit suicide.

    And I think it is because of despair. Not just white males but the afflictions of the white working class in general. For a couple of generations in the twentieth century it seemed like they were actually getting somewhere with nothing but hard work, honesty, and gumption, and then they had the rug pulled out from underneath them. The relatively lower classes didn't have those expectations of increasing - or at least not sinking - quality of life to begin with.
    It's not about race, it's about urban vs rural culture. Rural counties have consistently much higher suicide rates than metro areas. Rural areas are also whiter. And yes, more conservative. And I think they would tend to have higher rates regardless because a lot of suicides are connected to social isolation. Rural communities have been suffering in many places, with their social institutions (in the USA traditionally mostly having been churches) sharply declining in the last couple decades, and without really anything to replace that. People will talk about mental health treatment but it's a cultural problem with our whole society.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    It's not about race, it's about urban vs rural culture. Rural counties have consistently much higher suicide rates than metro areas. Rural areas are also whiter. And yes, more conservative. And I think they would tend to have higher rates regardless because a lot of suicides are connected to social isolation. Rural communities have been suffering in many places, with their social institutions (in the USA traditionally mostly having been churches) sharply declining in the last couple decades, and without really anything to replace that. People will talk about mental health treatment but it's a cultural problem with our whole society.
    So there's a strong correlation between how red a state is and its number of suicides? The correlation between levels of mental illness by state and number of suicides are much, much weaker. Suicide is highest in middle-aged white men and is linked to unemployment and the owning of a handgun. What's going to stop someone in their 30s, 40s or 50s going to church? Feeling disgraced and disenfranchised is the only thing I can think of. The isolation-population density theory doesn't explain the increasing rates, only the state differences. And those explanations don't explain why college suicides have doubled. People who believe in the meritocracy are those most at risk. The ROI on a degree is terrible except for a select few, because the career paths just aren't there anymore; you have a 50% chance on graduation of working a job you don't need a degree for, and it's been that way for a while. You might go up the ladder faster because of the degree but that won't offset the exorbitant university prices and loans of the last few decades. The only big industries that are growing, aren't going to automated soon, and generally require a degree, are nursing, software and product development, and analytics. The jobs that have been automated away in mining, retail, and agriculture are never coming back to the midwest, and these industries were the biggest employers alongside the government. The HCA profession is exploding because of the ageing population, but it's not the isolated elderly who are committing suicide, it's the people the market is trying to pressure to become their carers who are. The neoliberal solutions to these problems are a 100% land value tax, a carbon dividend, and UBI. The neoliberal ideology is built on myths and lies, though, and it's never aimed at creating a functioning or efficient society, so these profitable, efficient bandaids for this international scam might not become politically viable even after the decay has finished off these few societies that between the 40s and 90s didn't have anything like third-world levels of inequality. You can't keep increasing your extraction from your citizen's assets forever, they don't have infinite capital, and we're still only at the point where the paycheck-to-paycheck median citizen can't afford an unexpected $300 expense. When they can no longer afford a $100 expense just as automation begins really taking hold and perhaps the next recession hits, things will really get interesting.

    The megachurches and their prosperity gospel are really doing quite well in rural areas. The unquestioned beliefs you need to have regarding our system in order to believe in the prosperity gospel are easy to extrapolate. Amazon has replaced a massive percentage of retail already, operating tax free and treating its general employees impressively poorly. Uber is doing alright by some measurements and it is a ponzi scheme, using investor money to subsidize the cost of the journey for the consumer to beat out the competition, while offsetting all overheads onto its employees.


  6. #366
    This vid is gold.

    It captures exactly what I thought when my liberal friend drones about global warming and saving the animals, and how its a "pseudo moralistic stance" liberals latch onto while neglecting what's in front of them to "make themselves look good to their friends and their neighbors" - 3:00 approx. While climate change might be a legitimate issue, half these liberals just use it as a crutch or a weapon. Prime example of a liberal with a Laughing like button smile to mock everything republicans say.

    Memelogical qoutient

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