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Thread: Clinton: Being a capitlaist "probably" hust me with Dem voters

  1. #11
    Senior Member jyng1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senseye View Post
    I don't think anybody in the US is very socialist.

    Few Americans know what it is or what Sanders means when he describes himself as a "democratic socialist."

    Because the word "socialism" has been demonized, few Americans call themselves socialists or even social democrats. But public opinion polls -- including the Pew Research Center, Hart Research Associates and The New York Times/CBS -- show that a vast majority of Americans agree with what Sanders actually stands for.
    For example, 74% think corporations have too much influence; 73% favor tougher regulation of Wall Street; 60% believe that "our economic system unfairly favors the wealthy;" 85% want an overhaul of our campaign finance system to reduce the influence of money in politics; 58% support breaking up big banks; 79% think the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes; 85% favor paid family leave; 80% of Democrats and half the public support single-payer Medicare for all; 75% of Americans (including 53% of Republicans) support an increase in the federal minimum wage to $12.50, while 63% favor a $15 minimum wage; well over 70% support workers' rights to unionize; and 92% want a society with far less income disparity.
    https://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/27/o...ism/index.html

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senseye View Post
    I don't think anybody in the US is very socialist. Bernie has no chance IMO as he is too far left. The Dems need a reasonable center-left (which in most other countries might seem center-right) candidate to oust Trump or whatever Republican gun-toting religious right candidate who might replace him.

    I'm pretty sure the 'average' American will still choose a right wing religious nutbar over anybody who smells of an actual socialist.
    Trump isn't religious. I've read more things about Bernie Sanders and religion, then I have in connection in Trump. I was going to write a detailed response here about socialism, liberalism and the U.S., but then I saw the kind of lazy opinion that anyone could come up with, and felt my time would be better spent addressing that instead. Let's not pretend that this discussion has anything to do with ideas rather than culturally convenient affilation (i.e. urban atheist intellectuals vs. redneck religious hillbillies.) I'm not saying those generalizations don't have truth to them; I'm just saying that pointing it out isn't saying anything very interesting. I'm tempted to assume anyone who casually trades in that kind of imagery is more about ideological security blankets than any sort of true progressive vision (not that I devote much time to such things anymore).

    It's a useless cliché, that's all. For instance, I have met people in the US who identify as socialist, which obviously puts the lie to the fact that "nobody in the U.S. is very socialist."

    It would have been more salient to focus on the role of racism. Plenty of religious folks and "values voters" are perfectly willing to vote for someone who doesn't share their values if they share their racism. But I suppose you'd not mention that because it would suggest paying some attention to the problems of structural inequality.
    Last edited by Scrubjay; 05-09-2018 at 09:10 PM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Senseye's Avatar
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    RE: my comment I don't think anybody in the US is very socialist. . That was just a generalization based on my perception of the average American's political viewpoint. I'm sure there are plenty of individuals who are socialist but not enough to have any significant political influence.

    I'll start to think otherwise if a) Sanders wins the democratic nomination next election and b) he actually defeats Trump. This is assuming the aforementioned parties are still active in their roles come 2020. OTOH hand, if a less socialist candidate than Bernie wins the Democratic nomination or Trump defeats Sanders, I'll continue with my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Senseye View Post
    RE: my comment I don't think anybody in the US is very socialist. . That was just a generalization based on my perception of the average American's political viewpoint. I'm sure there are plenty of individuals who are socialist but not enough to have any significant political influence.

    I'll start to think otherwise if a) Sanders wins the democratic nomination next election and b) he actually defeats Trump. This is assuming the aforementioned parties are still active in their roles come 2020. OTOH hand, if a less socialist candidate than Bernie wins the Democratic nomination or Trump defeats Sanders, I'll continue with my opinion.
    Well, Sanders did better than I expected. He actually won a lot of states, way more than Howard Dean did in 2004.
    Last edited by Scrubjay; 05-15-2018 at 02:06 AM.

  5. #15
    Minister of Love Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Sanders is a social democrat, not an actual socialist, or at least his whole platform was roughly as "socialist" or "left-wing" as Angela Merkel's.

    Not that Sanders himself seems to understand the distinction, or that this is exceptional on his part.


    As far as I'm aware, most Americans aren't even aware of the existence of the term "social democracy", let alone understanding what it means well enough to grasp the distinction between social democracy and "democratic socialism."


    Bernie Sanders basically represents the kind of people who think Sweden has a socialist economy.

    (It doesn't, of course, but I've been hearing people say this ever since I was in high school.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptah View Post
    No history, no exposition, no anecdote or argument changes the invariant: we are all human beings, and some humans are idiots.

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