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Thread: Velvet determinism

  1. #11
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    The problem with myopic thinking is you can't avoid problems you refuse to foresee nor connect long term consequences with their short term causes.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  2. #12
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    the concept of balance is boring, carl jung already talk at length on it in his red book, there's not much to add about it
    i don't think we are as free as the king of england, i don't think we are as choiceless as a mutated newborn
    and if i have to choose guts or logic i pick guts because it's less moral, thus more free

  3. #13
    Member rhinosaur's Avatar
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    Determinism is interesting to think about. If there is any part of the decision making process that is random or non deterministic, it exists way before conscious thought. That means that even the decision to act against that subconscious feeling is pre-determined.


    I'm in your movie and everyone looks sad
    But I can hear you, your voice, the laughtrack
    But you never saw my best scene
    The one where I sleep
    Sleepwalk into your dreams
    Now, sleepwalker, what's my line
    It's only a matter of time
    Until I learn to open up my eyes
    When I'm dead asleep dreamin'

  4. #14
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PureViolence View Post
    the concept of balance is boring, carl jung already talk at length on it in his red book, there's not much to add about it
    i don't think we are as free as the king of england, i don't think we are as choiceless as a mutated newborn
    and if i have to choose guts or logic i pick guts because it's less moral, thus more free
    If you make a pattern of behavior based on it being less moral, then you are still bound by morality because you're choices are still predicated on morality. If moral-bound is less free you are not more free. You are less free than the person who chooses to do something because they decided it was moral.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  5. #15
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
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    I enjoy the sensation of easing back into an observer state where you just witness deterministic unfolding with a sort of awe...perhaps an illusion, it at least feels like a space where one is peeled away from the determinism itself. While it isn't a state where you really engage in volition or anything intentional, just the sense of being aware that it all just 'is' is satisfying. I suppose that from such a state, one acts according to a similar intuition as described in the OP...experienced as the body just doing what it would be doing, even if you weren't consciously aware of it.

    ...not sure if it's a space that's different from unconsciousness or dissociation or not...
    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

  6. #16
    Now we know... Asteroids Champion ACow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    What? And develop sanity? That's crazy!
    Well exactly; to me, intuition aligning with logic/reason sounds like a starting point for a positive definition of mental health.

    Quote Originally Posted by PureViolence View Post
    yeah, that's what you expect, to live balanced, but usually people do what they please at every moment, we cannot deny we tend to care more about ourselves in the present, i mean, what's so wrong about that?, why moralize everything?
    Its "wrong" in the sense that punching yourself in the testicles is wrong, or thinking you can stop a bus with your face is "wrong". The main difference is generally the disassociation between actions and when the oil hits the anus.

  7. #17
    Amen P-O's Avatar
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    Nearly everybody accepts that free will exists whether they believe in determinism or not. Most of what we do in this world is spend time deciding what to do next. How can you possibly spend all that time choosing things without believing that you are choosing? Everything about the way we talk and act in the world has an implicit idea that we are agents who choose.

    Most people recognize that there is such a thing as a subconscious. That we don't have access to every aspect of our own mind. I think the discussion of how the conscious and subconscious aspects relate to one another relates to the idea of free will and is very interesting.... but that subject is totally separate from the idea of determinism vs indeterminism which is a question about the physics that governs the universe.

    The two ideas take place at different levels of analysis. It's a false choice to say that one or the other is true.

    Edit: To address the OP more directly: I think that framework makes sense. I prefer to think of the thinker/feeler dichotomy as a question of speaking different languages. The feeler language is better for talking about internal things, but the thinker language is better for external things.
    Violence is never the right answer, unless used against heathens and monsters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    If you make a pattern of behavior based on it being less moral, then you are still bound by morality because you're choices are still predicated on morality. If moral-bound is less free you are not more free. You are less free than the person who chooses to do something because they decided it was moral.
    Nah, you don't pick to be guided by your guts, it just happens and it's less moral because you don't impose structure over others.

  9. #19
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PureViolence View Post
    Nah, you don't pick to be guided by your guts, it just happens and it's less moral because you don't impose structure over others.
    Neither of those statements is true. Firstly you already said you choose to go with your gut impulse. That means you acknowledge you make a choice to be guided by it. Secondly, what if your gut impulse is to impose structure over others? Third, what does imposing structure over others have to do with being moral in your behavior? So many words have no meaning at all when you use them.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Neither of those statements is true. Firstly you already said you choose to go with your gut impulse. That means you acknowledge you make a choice to be guided by it. Secondly, what if your gut impulse is to impose structure over others? Third, what does imposing structure over others have to do with being moral in your behavior? So many words have no meaning at all when you use them.
    language is boring. and you surely get what i meant: live and let die.
    but yeah sir you can analyze that phrase and explain us the meaning of existence itself, i'll be glad to watch you.

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