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Thread: "Pride Month" and "homophobe"

  1. #1
    Senior Member BarIII's Avatar
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    "Pride Month" and "homophobe"

    They're like terms Trump would have invented if he was out of the closet. I guarantee there are people who go to pride parades not knowing it's about gay pride. And some people think homosexuality is a sin (and/or wrong). That doesn't mean they're afraid of it or homosexuals.
    Last edited by BarIII; 06-09-2018 at 08:13 PM.
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    I like big buts Sir Caveat's Avatar
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    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Pride is the deadliest of the seven sins.

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    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Homophobia - George Weinberg, an American psychotherapist, invented the word in the mid-1960s after a group of his colleagues asked him to disinvite his lesbian friend to a party. He described their hostility towards gay men and women as fear.

    Having witnessed the reactions of some conservatives to revelations that someone they were in contact with was gay the whole time, I think that "fear" and therefore "phobia" are appropriate characterizations of the reaction of some conservatives to homosexuality. If you wanted someone to disinvite a murderer, or someone known for drinking too much and hitting people, that would be an appropriate fear based expectation and therefore not a phobia. If the fear isn't based on a realistic expectation of harm then it's usually characterized as a phobia. Many people have a phobia about contact with gay people.

    Most perceived sins, in contrast to homosexuality, are things that people must be dissuaded from because they are so tempting ...like gluttony, adultery, stealing, killing, etc. Gayness as a sin stands out because the only people who actually want to commit the supposed sin are already gay.

    In the 60s, gay pride hadn't been coined yet. People had "gay ins" and used the slogan "gay is good." It was common for police to raid known gay gatherings and arrest everyone on trumped up charges. The reason gay pride month is in June is to commemorate the Stonewall Riots of 1969. The way these raids were conducted, police would go in and take everyone dressed like a woman to the bathroom to be gender verified by a female officer, and those dressed like men were verified by male officers. Men who crossdressed were arrested. Lesbian women claimed that male public moral officers used verification of gender as an excuse to explore their genitals. The police who conducted the Stonewall raid had a "public morals squad." All of this police behavior was considered largely acceptable by the public. The stonewall riots were the result of a boiling point being reached where gay citizens grew tired of being treated like they had no rights because of their sexual orientation. Being gay behind closed doors in private didn't result in gay people being left alone, so the movement to be gay and proud of it was born. "We're here, we're queer, get used to it," isn't just a slogan, it is a precisely worded statement of what the gay pride movement is all about.

    I, for one, do not blame gay people one bit for wanting to flaunt it in light of how they were driven underground only to be rounded up and mistreated when they were afraid to flaunt it. It's how I'd react if I was told, for a silly example, that green eyed people must only read in private, only to have the people who drove me underground for doing something everyone else is allowed to do in the course of their pursuit of happiness because I have a trait I have no control form a task force to seek out and round up green eyed people who read in private so they could humiliate, abuse, and arrest them and get them fired from their livelihoods.
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    Senior Member BarIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    If the fear isn't based on a realistic expectation of harm then it's usually characterized as a phobia.
    It's misused when someone is just trying to follow the rules of their religion and wants others to too. I guess you would call fear of hell a phobia too. There's no place for the word homophobia where there's religious tolerance.

    For people who have a dumb idea of what's moral with no religion involved, it's misleading to call that a phobia too but not as bad. Technically, I think something isn't considered a mental illness unless it adversely affects your life and anti-gay people don't have impaired lives.
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    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarIII View Post
    It's misused when someone is just trying to follow the rules of their religion and wants others to too. I guess you would call fear of hell a phobia too. There's no place for the word homophobia where there's religious tolerance.

    For people who have a dumb idea of what's moral with no religion involved, it's misleading to call that a phobia too but not as bad. Technically, I think something isn't considered a mental illness unless it adversely affects your life and anti-gay people don't have impaired lives.
    Wishing a gay person was straight because your religious beliefs say they are going to be punished in the afterlife for it is not homophobia, that's just misdirected self-righteous compassion. Homophobia is dehumanizing someone because they are gay and can easily result in the inability to think of homosexuals as human beings with the same rights as oneself. It results in abuses like some of the ones I've mentioned above because a homophobic person sees gay people as less than human and therefore can internally justify treating them poorly, sometimes in egregious ways, sometimes in small ways. It is possible to believe that homosexuality is a sin and still treat gay people with the same respect that one treats everyone thereby remaining true to your beliefs without becoming a piece of shit. Most sinners are welcome in the house of the lord...but in churches where homophobia is an issue, all sinners are welcome provided they are not gay sinners. In businesses where homophobia is an issue, sinners of all stripes are welcome, but not gay ones. In bars where homophobia is an issue, sinners aren't just welcomed, they are facilitated in their sins, provided they are not gay sins. That is homophobia.

    Perhaps you are arguing that expecting Christians to treat sinners like people is religiously intolerant. That's a dangerously slippery slope into a pit of self righteous douchebaggery, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god (Romans 3:23).

    Lucky for gay christians, heaven isn't homophobic. According to baptists and pentecostals, sinners are welcome in heaven provided they said the magic jesus thing prior to death, even if they die right in the middle of sinning, and even if that sin is totally gay.

    It's also worth noting that one need not take any action to be considered homosexual and therefore to be the recipient of homophobic treatment. To be a murderer, one must murder; to be a thief, one must steal; to be a glutton, one must overeat. One can be an untouched virgin and still be gay, and homophobes don't actually check to see if you committed the supposed sin before they take actions to ensure that you do not have access to the places they frequent.

    Homophobia doesn't just make you a shitty person, it makes you a shitty Christian.

    Disclaimer: I do not subscribe to Christianity or to it's dubious claims that homosexuality is a sin, or that sin results in hell, or that hell exists, or that there is a god, etc. All references to homosexuality as "sin" are for the purpose of the scenario put forth by Bar3 in which he posits that since christianity considers homosexuality a sin, one cannot refer to any behavior a christian exhibits with respect to homosexuality as "homophobia."
    Last edited by Sistamatic; 06-10-2018 at 05:48 AM.
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    Senior Member BarIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    In businesses where homophobia is an issue, sinners of all stripes are welcome, but not gay ones. In bars where homophobia is an issue, sinners aren't just welcomed, they are facilitated in their sins, provided they are not gay sins. That is homophobia.
    I don't think most people think of that as fear even now that everyone uses the word homophobia. It's just dislike or a moral objection.

    I think that "fear" and therefore "phobia" are appropriate characterizations of the reaction of some conservatives to homosexuality.
    They're afraid it will gain more acceptance and they don't want it practiced because they think it's bad. It's not the same as a classic phobia, like a fear of spiders or olives, which a person would like to be cured of. It's more like a fear of flying that you don't want cured because you believe it's too dangerous to warrant flying. There's nothing wrong with the terms anti-gay or "gay discrimination." When you invent the word homophobia you're taking sides, not contributing to language.
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  8. #8
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarIII View Post
    I don't think most people think of that as fear even now that everyone uses the word homophobia. It's just dislike or a moral objection.

    They're afraid it will gain more acceptance and they don't want it practiced because they think it's bad. It's not the same as a classic phobia, like a fear of spiders or olives, which a person would like to be cured of. It's more like a fear of flying that you don't want cured because you believe it's too dangerous to warrant flying. There's nothing wrong with the terms anti-gay or "gay discrimination." When you invent the word homophobia you're taking sides, not contributing to language.
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

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  9. #9
    Senior Member BarIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    Yeah, well, it will gain more acceptance if tolerated so they're right. Nothing unreasonable about that.
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  10. #10
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarIII View Post
    Yeah, well, it will gain more acceptance if tolerated so they're right. Nothing unreasonable about that.
    So you are stating that it is in Christians' own self interest to fight for a society in which homosexuals are neither accepted or tolerated.

    Lets assume that's the case for the sake of argument. #notallchristians Your position is that it is unfair for gay people to characterize people who want them to be neither accepted or tolerated in their own society, in some cases in their own families, with a negative word?

    You think combating a powerful voting block's attempt to deny an entire segment of the population mainstream acceptance and tolerance by coining a perfect PR phrase is surprising? Unreasonable? Overreacting? What is your point? That homosexuals should let the people who wish they didn't exist have their way because it's an honest belief?

    Gay people and their friends and families are using words to fight for acceptance and tolerance in the society they were born into. Nothing unreasonable about that.

    When you invent the word homophobia you're taking sides, not contributing to language.
    Yeah, I think taking a side was probably the point of coining the phrase. It was not primarily an attempt to contribute to language...but the contribution was made nonetheless.
    Last edited by Sistamatic; 06-10-2018 at 08:51 AM.
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