Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 30 of 30

Thread: "Pride Month" and "homophobe"

  1. #21
    Ieilaelite pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    5,210
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mexico View Post
    Nobody holds "straight pride" parades because there's no need for such a thing--no one thinks heterosexuality is shameful.
    Plenty of people do, or at least plenty of traditional people think sex is something that should stay private and inside of marriages. It's just that the sexual revolution very quickly destroyed that part of our culture, taking with it the nuclear family. Now "straight pride parades" are held year-round and invade all facets of public life.

  2. #22
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    6,211
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinny View Post
    Well it's not that I just randomly imagine people having sex, but people talk (amongst friends) about the sex that they have, and yeah.. that does provoke imagery.

    (Just ran this conversation by my ENFP friend and she agrees.)

    I'm not sure if more exposure would have changed my prejudices, ENFP just said that she was exposed to gay people at an early age, but she still feels just like me.
    None of my friends, gay or straight, talk about the sex they are having (except on this forum). Weird. Maybe that's a generational thing?
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle

  3. #23
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Birmingham, UK
    Posts
    5,333
    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    None of my friends, gay or straight, talk about the sex they are having (except on this forum). Weird. Maybe that's a generational thing?
    Must be... You apparently cant relate to much of what my generation gets up to
    All truth passes through three stages:

    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.


  4. #24
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    6,211
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinny View Post
    Must be... You apparently cant relate to much of what my generation gets up to
    Yup, I learn all sorts of fun facts about the youngsters on this forum. It's all part of my master plan to keep those damn kids off my lawn.
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle

  5. #25
    Minister of Love Roger Mexico's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    New World
    Posts
    3,338
    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    Plenty of people do, or at least plenty of traditional people think sex is something that should stay private and inside of marriages. It's just that the sexual revolution very quickly destroyed that part of our culture, taking with it the nuclear family. Now "straight pride parades" are held year-round and invade all facets of public life.
    Mmm,

    I don't disagree with you, but I do think these are essentially two different issues.


    It's what I think @Sistamatic is getting at--homophobic conservatives specifically are not OK with homosexuality as long as people keep it private. Or at least that's definitely not the "traditional" view on the subject.

    Gay people generally used to do exactly that for a very long time--often out of sheer necessity considering what would probably happen to them if they were fully "out" about it publicly--and that didn't work.

    That wasn't good enough for the "guardians of right and proper Godly moral conduct". Not even close.


    It didn't even guarantee their safety, because when they made a point of trying to make sure straight people never even knew about it, the "traditional moral values" assholes' response to that was to do a bunch of stupid fucking totalitarian secret-police bullshit to go figure out where all the secret gaiety was happening so they could punish people for it.

    Just to reiterate the very good point that was already made by someone else here--the problem was not straight people's reaction to gay people's sexual behavior. What the straight people had a problem with was gay people's existence.


    I just don't think that could ever be an accurate description of the way that stupid fucking "traditional values" assholes think about heterosexuality.


    From their point of view, the desire to have sex with a member of the opposite sex is not in itself a bad thing at all--they believe that the whole reason it exists is God's desire for people to reproduce. (And since it was God who decided that the specific method by which we would reproduce would consist of sticking our hoo-hoo-dillies in each other's cha-chas, we can't exactly say that he even has a problem with us doing that way per se.)


    It's not a problem that you want to have sex. You're supposed to want that--as long as no one you ever want to have sex with has the same kind of genitals you do.

    It's a problem if you fail to closely follow the guidelines about the time, place, and manner in which you do actually have sex (and honestly, in my own experience growing up in a very deep-fundie, hardcore redneck-conservative kind of community, in practice even that frequently turns out to not be nearly as much of a problem as you think it theoretically would be) but I think this clearly isn't analogous to how they feel about the mere existence of anyone who has a desire to have sex with someone who is the same gender as they are.


    They don't hate you and want you to stop existing if you're a straight person who's just a little bit hornier and not quite as good at impulse control as they think would be ideal. That actually tends to get handled rather amicably.


    (In fact, it could actually become a problem if people started noticing you never exhibiting any kind of desire to have sex at all. That's how you start getting people paranoid about the hypothetical possibility of you turning out to be gay.)


    But it really is very much the truth that this is not how they feel about gay people at all.

    They are made very uncomfortable by the mere fact that gay people exist, and what they really wish for is that there would be some way to actually make gay people not exist.


    And that's actually the charitable interpretation.


    The uncharitable interpretation is that they actually would be less happy if gay people did not exist, because that would deprive them of a conveniently available set of targets upon which to focus their tendency to derive enjoyment--or feelings of superiority that vicariously offset personal insecurities, or whatever--from the very act of hating and tormenting some other group of people who are implicitly or subconsciously classified as basically existing for the purpose of being hated and tormented for that reason.



    Honestly, in light of my own observations of the psychological proclivities of the fairly large number of serious hardcore fundamentalist rednecks I have ended up knowing rather well over the course of my life, I believe either of these interpretations could easily be the truth.


    Fundamentalist rednecks are a seriously horrible and frightening sort of people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptah View Post
    No history, no exposition, no anecdote or argument changes the invariant: we are all human beings, and some humans are idiots.

  6. #26
    Banned
    Type
    ISFP
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    1,308
    Tonight I'm going with a friend to the pride thing. Check out some hairy asses.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Guess Who's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,675
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mexico View Post
    A phobia is an irrationally excessive fear of an over-generalized category of things, places, or people which is out of proportion to any actual danger they pose (if indeed they ever pose any danger at all).

    I guess the usage is a bit figurative in some cases, but this definitely works as an accurate description of the reasoning behind most of the main arguments ever offered by major political or cultural movements trying to justify opposition to the gay rights agenda of ending all societal persecution of homosexual people and removing all cultural stigma from homosexuality.

    E.g. the argument that legalizing same-sex marriage is an "attack" on the whole institution of marriage itself. Or the broader category of arguments this falls into in which conservatives claim that the gay rights movement is trying to "destroy the institution of the family."

    Neither of these arguments make a lick of sense at all. These characterizations have nothing to do with the actual intentions of the gay rights movement in reality. Allowing gay people to get married allows them to form the same kind of family units that straight people do--i.e. what it plainly does is expand the so-called "institutions of marriage and family", making them that much larger and more common by allowing a group of people to participate in them who were previously excluded from the ability to participate only for stupid, arbitrary, illogical reasons. It's just correcting a flaw in the way that these "institutions" have been managed up until recently.

    If you feel threatened by that--and yes, plenty of people obviously do feel threatened by that, since something being harmful or dangerous is the only legitimate reason to want to prohibit or stigmatize it--then your fear of it is irrational, in exactly the way that defines a type of fear as a phobia.

    Likewise, if you believe homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles--which was for instance the stated reasoning of the American Boy Scouts for their infamous decision to ban gay adults from volunteering with the organization--this is also a phobia, because in reality they aren't. There is no valid logic associating one phenomenon with the other in that way.

    It even works to describe the arguments MoneyJungle mentions, where conservatives claim that eliminating institutional repression and cultural stigmatization of homosexuality will somehow result in the legitimization of actually dangerous and dysfunctional forms of sexuality like pedophilia and zoophilia.

    This reasoning makes no sense--in fact I think it's quite possibly the stupidest thing that any conservative has ever said--because the implied logic is essentially "if our culture ever changes its mind about anything it used to think was a problem, then we'll become totally unable to ever recognize anything as a problem."

    This is clearly false. It's so blatantly fallacious that I don't think the fallacy even needs an explanation here.

    But, again, if you actually believe that--and clearly many people do--then what you're doing is imagining that a threat is implied by a whole vague category of phenomena (in this case, that of logical arguments for the liberalization of cultural and institutional attitudes toward a behavior which the historical stigma against has been shown to be irrational) which you clearly have no logical reason to believe the phenomenon actually poses.

    I.e. you're exhibiting a phobia about it.

    Even the belief that homosexuality is "immoral" doesn't actually hold any water when subjected to logical analysis (in part because, yes, "this one book which I happen to believe contains an infallibly accurate description of the will of God" is itself an irrational premise to base any of your beliefs about morality on in the first place). There's nothing harmful, dishonest, hypocritical or otherwise evil about homosexuality--so yes, this belief in itself treats homosexuality as something to be afraid of for reasons that don't make any sense, and therefore can reasonably be described as a phobia.

    This also works for related usages such as "Islamophobia." If you regard all Muslims in general as dangerous, simply by virtue of being Muslims, just because a small number of Muslims have done something wrong, or because you have a limited and faulty understanding of Islamic theology, then you are exhibiting a phobia about Islam.

    As far as "gay pride", that concept exists because pride is the opposite of shame.

    Obviously there's a very long and extensive history of cultural trends leading to homosexual people being told that their sexual orientation is something they should be ashamed of.

    That's harmful to them in a variety of ways, and therefore the "gay pride" movement came about as a response to counter those harmful cultural forces that were encouraging gay people to feel shame.

    I can maybe see how gay pride parades have become a little corny and cliched these days, but originally the whole point of them was to get a bunch of gay people together to make a public display of the fact that they weren't ashamed of being gay, for the purpose of publicizing a message that no other gay people should ever feel ashamed of being gay either.

    Nobody holds "straight pride" parades because there's no need for such a thing--no one thinks heterosexuality is shameful.

    And again, if gay pride parades make you feel threatened, or seem to you like something that people shouldn't be doing, then this is because you have a phobia about homosexuality.
    Your suggestion that homophobia and Islamophobia are true phobias based solely on ignorance is a very neat idea but I think it is overly simplistic and relies on one ignoring certain facts and interpreting other facts in a certain way that may or may not turn out to be true.
    Big change is coming

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Type
    intp
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,687
    Quote Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
    Your suggestion that homophobia and Islamophobia are true phobias based solely on ignorance is a very neat idea but I think it is overly simplistic and relies on one ignoring certain facts and interpreting other facts in a certain way that may or may not turn out to be true.
    Ascertained from observation of your 8 lesbian friends.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Guess Who's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,675
    Quote Originally Posted by scarydoor View Post
    Ascertained from observation of your 8 lesbian friends.
    Ha ha ha.

    Please tell me the facts that you believe I am ignoring and misinterpreting to come to an incorrect view of homosexuality and Islam.
    Big change is coming

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Type
    intp
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,687
    Quote Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
    Ha ha ha.

    Please tell me the facts that you believe I am ignoring and misinterpreting to come to an incorrect view of homosexuality and Islam.
    no thankyou

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •