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Thread: "Pride Month" and "homophobe"

  1. #11
    Senior Member BarIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    So you are stating that it is in Christians' own self interest to fight for a society in which homosexuals are neither accepted or tolerated.
    I don't know what kind of fight would be in their best interest, but basically yes. I wouldn't encourage it though.

    You think combating a powerful voting block's attempt to deny an entire segment of the population mainstream acceptance and tolerance by coining a perfect PR phrase is surprising? Unreasonable? Overreacting? What is your point? That homosexuals should let the people who wish they didn't exist have their way because it's an honest belief?
    It's surprising that news people and such don't get that it's a biased and misleading term or don't care enough to be against it. I'd expect some gay activists to use a term like that disparagingly but not a news person and I'd even hold it against a politician. PR doesn't have to go that far. I'd have thought it's too dumb to be effective but it caught on so I guess it worked but it's a Trump style tactic and I wouldn't use it.
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  2. #12
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    Here to be homosexual is so normal that not even the radical left cares about their rights anymore XD. I mean yeah, there's always a far right minority that hates on them but they are just crazy people and super rare incidents like bullying so on.
    To keep things interesting I'll post later in another thread a situation that happened to me while having a gay professor in my class who thought I was either gifted or super crazy. You'll decide.

  3. #13
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    Shit I'm celebrating all month

  4. #14
    Member MoneyJungle's Avatar
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    I'm not affected by any of these identity months but I think they're dumb. I learned a trade in the hopes of never attending an assembly ever again and it's worked so far.

    Gays are such a privileged class these days that the word 'homophobia' feels time-worn but I think it served fairly well as a cudgel to advance gay rights. The interesting part is it's mutation into 'Islamophobia' and 'transphopbia.' What do you guys think will be the next phobia diversity officers at universities will use to justify their positions? Our friends on the right would probably say pedophobia or bestialityphobia but I fear 'fatphobia' will actually be taken seriously in the next five years. The pendulum is gonna swing one way or the other with obesity and skyrocketing healthcare costs.

    Has anyone here been called homophobic and had it affect them socially and/or professionally? I feel like a spectator in these grand euphemistic discussions because I don't engage people idealogically out in the wild. Whether this is consideration, contempt or both is a whole other discussion.

    Glimpses do ye seem to see of that mortally intolerable truth; that all deep, earnest thinking is but the intrepid effort of the soul to keep the open independence of her sea; while the wildest winds of heaven and earth conspire to cast her on the treacherous, slavish shore?

  5. #15
    Senior Member BarIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyJungle View Post
    I don't engage people idealogically out in the wild.
    Me neither. I think some people don't get the same super-casual/it doesn't matter/people won't be as offended here feeling online as I do which is why I started the Real life chat vs forum thread. Even if I brought up this issue in real life I'd discuss it differently.
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  6. #16
    Minister of Love Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    A phobia is an irrationally excessive fear of an over-generalized category of things, places, or people which is out of proportion to any actual danger they pose (if indeed they ever pose any danger at all).


    I guess the usage is a bit figurative in some cases, but this definitely works as an accurate description of the reasoning behind most of the main arguments ever offered by major political or cultural movements trying to justify opposition to the gay rights agenda of ending all societal persecution of homosexual people and removing all cultural stigma from homosexuality.


    E.g. the argument that legalizing same-sex marriage is an "attack" on the whole institution of marriage itself. Or the broader category of arguments this falls into in which conservatives claim that the gay rights movement is trying to "destroy the institution of the family."

    Neither of these arguments make a lick of sense at all. These characterizations have nothing to do with the actual intentions of the gay rights movement in reality. Allowing gay people to get married allows them to form the same kind of family units that straight people do--i.e. what it plainly does is expand the so-called "institutions of marriage and family", making them that much larger and more common by allowing a group of people to participate in them who were previously excluded from the ability to participate only for stupid, arbitrary, illogical reasons. It's just correcting a flaw in the way that these "institutions" have been managed up until recently.

    If you feel threatened by that--and yes, plenty of people obviously do feel threatened by that, since something being harmful or dangerous is the only legitimate reason to want to prohibit or stigmatize it--then your fear of it is irrational, in exactly the way that defines a type of fear as a phobia.

    Likewise, if you believe homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles--which was for instance the stated reasoning of the American Boy Scouts for their infamous decision to ban gay adults from volunteering with the organization--this is also a phobia, because in reality they aren't. There is no valid logic associating one phenomenon with the other in that way.


    It even works to describe the arguments @MoneyJungle mentions, where conservatives claim that eliminating institutional repression and cultural stigmatization of homosexuality will somehow result in the legitimization of actually dangerous and dysfunctional forms of sexuality like pedophilia and zoophilia.

    This reasoning makes no sense--in fact I think it's quite possibly the stupidest thing that any conservative has ever said--because the implied logic is essentially "if our culture ever changes its mind about anything it used to think was a problem, then we'll become totally unable to ever recognize anything as a problem."

    This is clearly false. It's so blatantly fallacious that I don't think the fallacy even needs an explanation here.

    But, again, if you actually believe that--and clearly many people do--then what you're doing is imagining that a threat is implied by a whole vague category of phenomena (in this case, that of logical arguments for the liberalization of cultural and institutional attitudes toward a behavior which the historical stigma against has been shown to be irrational) which you clearly have no logical reason to believe the phenomenon actually poses.

    I.e. you're exhibiting a phobia about it.

    Even the belief that homosexuality is "immoral" doesn't actually hold any water when subjected to logical analysis (in part because, yes, "this one book which I happen to believe contains an infallibly accurate description of the will of God" is itself an irrational premise to base any of your beliefs about morality on in the first place). There's nothing harmful, dishonest, hypocritical or otherwise evil about homosexuality--so yes, this belief in itself treats homosexuality as something to be afraid of for reasons that don't make any sense, and therefore can reasonably be described as a phobia.


    This also works for related usages such as "Islamophobia." If you regard all Muslims in general as dangerous, simply by virtue of being Muslims, just because a small number of Muslims have done something wrong, or because you have a limited and faulty understanding of Islamic theology, then you are exhibiting a phobia about Islam.



    As far as "gay pride", that concept exists because pride is the opposite of shame.

    Obviously there's a very long and extensive history of cultural trends leading to homosexual people being told that their sexual orientation is something they should be ashamed of.

    That's harmful to them in a variety of ways, and therefore the "gay pride" movement came about as a response to counter those harmful cultural forces that were encouraging gay people to feel shame.

    I can maybe see how gay pride parades have become a little corny and cliched these days, but originally the whole point of them was to get a bunch of gay people together to make a public display of the fact that they weren't ashamed of being gay, for the purpose of publicizing a message that no other gay people should ever feel ashamed of being gay either.


    Nobody holds "straight pride" parades because there's no need for such a thing--no one thinks heterosexuality is shameful.


    And again, if gay pride parades make you feel threatened, or seem to you like something that people shouldn't be doing, then this is because you have a phobia about homosexuality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptah View Post
    No history, no exposition, no anecdote or argument changes the invariant: we are all human beings, and some humans are idiots.

  7. #17
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    In my opinion, the term homophobia is spot on for the way a lot of Christians feel about being around gay people (especially gay men) even though their feelings result from a deeply held belief. It's a useful term. Way more expedient in this conversation (for example) than typing out something along the lines of, "people who get the heebie jeebies about contact with gay people because they believe homosexuality shouldn't be normalized in society" every single time I've said "homophobe." I have, in fact, taken a side here. I'd very much like to see homosexuality and alternate sexual identities and orientations normalized to the point that no one gives a crap about it. That puts me in direct opposition to anyone who wants homosexuality to be stigmatized because of their religious beliefs. I'm cool with that. Sometimes you just have to take a side. My side is "I don't give a fuck who anyone fucks or how they fuck or how many they fuck altogether or all at once as long as all involved parties are old enough, aware enough, and into it."

    In my opinion, it would be in any faction of Christianity's best interest to drop this particular fight since the scripture leading to it could be easily otherwise interpreted by anyone who cares to and I don't see the stance leading to the long term success of a church. It's a stance that essentially wants a group of people to stop existing. There is no societal implementation that eliminates gay people in society because they can be born anywhere, any time. There will always be gay people. There's no realistic path forward for eliminating gay people as a group that doesn't involve gross violations of human rights and dignity. Any religious doctrine that advocates the elimination of gay people in society is cruel. This is made obvious by the way such beliefs are exhibited in religious zealots who hold them. There is no nice way to engender the desire to eliminate gay people in society. Perhaps that's why the behaviors associated with it don't have a positive spin term like the pro life movement has.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    I think I've had/have some homophobic prejudices.

    Camp people really get under my skin, for example, and women hitting on me really makes me cringe, as does the thought of gay sex.

    But so many of my friends are gay and I love them to bits, over time they've helped me get over some of prejudices and conservatism.

    I've openly discussed with my lesbian and gay friends how it does make me cringey, but instead of shunning me and disregarding me as a homophobe, they listened to me, explained their perspectives and told me it was okay to be a little freaked out, so long as I wouldn't take that a lease to infringe upon their freedoms ... And of course, I'm sitting in their company and enjoying their company, how could I even dream of telling them they any less entitled to their preferences and freedoms than the rest of us? Well I can't of course.

    I can't even hold on to any prejudices I previously held about gay couples parenting because two of my good friends are in a lesbian relationship raising their two sons, and the fact they are two women does not affect them in the slightest, they are brilliant parents, and they've made sure they boys have regular contact and exposure to males roles.

    Pride is mostly an excuse for us all to party over here, and to celebrate gay pride in all their weird, wacky and wonderful colours

    Whatever floats you boat, so long as you're not hurting anybody.
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  9. #19
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinny View Post
    I think I've had/have some homophobic prejudices.

    Camp people really get under my skin, for example, and women hitting on me really makes me cringe, as does the thought of gay sex.

    But so many of my friends are gay and I love them to bits, over time they've helped me get over some of prejudices and conservatism.

    I've openly discussed with my lesbian and gay friends how it does make me cringey, but instead of shunning me and disregarding me as a homophobe, they listened to me, explained their perspectives and told me it was okay to be a little freaked out, so long as I wouldn't take that a lease to infringe upon their freedoms ... And of course, I'm sitting in their company and enjoying their company, how could I even dream of telling them they any less entitled to their preferences and freedoms than the rest of us? Well I can't of course.

    I can't even hold on to any prejudices I previously held about gay couples parenting because two of my good friends are in a lesbian relationship raising their two sons, and the fact they are two women does not affect them in the slightest, they are brilliant parents, and they've made sure they boys have regular contact and exposure to males roles.

    Pride is mostly an excuse for us all to party over here, and to celebrate gay pride in all their weird, wacky and wonderful colours

    Whatever floats you boat, so long as you're not hurting anybody.
    I see no indication in your stated position that you want society to create an environment in which non-heteros shouldn't be allowed to admit they exist. That's how I define homophobia.

    You treat it the same way people treat a food they don't like. Ex: I found out a friend of mine was a vegetarian when I saw the look on her face as she watched my steak bleed. Should I avoid eating steak in case someone is offended by omnivores? Hell no. Should she pretend she isn't grossed out? Hell no. She didn't try to limit my diet because of her beliefs and I didn't end our friendship because she found my preferences baffling. It was funny. We both laugh about it. I'm not going to invite her to meet me at a steak house on my birthday again now that I know she's grossed out by it. But there is no anger there. My dad can't stand to watch my mom eat sushi either, and I have seen the way my husband squicks out at the tendons and tripe in my pho dac biet, or when I eat olives.

    If my friend had gone on a tirade and told me I shouldn't be allowed to order rare steak, that eating rare steak in public was rude behavior, that I should be ashamed of myself for eating a rare steak, etc., then I might have made a spectacle of eating it. That's probably similar to the reaction that leads to pride parades and camp behavior.

    Hopefully you are able to avoid imagining people you know having sex regardless of their orientations. I'm not a very libidinous person though, so maybe people do that all the time and I don't know about it.

    Do you think more exposure from a young age would have kept you from developing these prejudices?
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

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  10. #20
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    Well it's not that I just randomly imagine people having sex, but people talk (amongst friends) about the sex that they have, and yeah.. that does provoke imagery.

    (Just ran this conversation by my ENFP friend and she agrees.)

    I'm not sure if more exposure would have changed my prejudices, ENFP just said that she was exposed to gay people at an early age, but she still feels just like me.
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)


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