Page 2 of 25 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 244

Thread: Separating kids from parents at the border

  1. #11
    Perfect is Shit LowIQLogan's Avatar
    Type
    InTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    504
    The suffering of children only matter when it promotes your political agenda.

    All of these policies were the same under Obama and it is previous administration's executive orders and laws that allow Trump to do these things.

    https://www.npr.org/2016/08/31/49196...migration-laws

    In 2012, the administration granted a temporary reprieve from deportation to certain immigrants who were brought to this country illegally as children. More than 600,000 young people took advantage of the offer, which also enabled them to obtain work permits.
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0288f5dc886af

    In the Obama years, those apprehended at the border began to be formally charged and fingerprinted before being issued a deportation order. In this way, they were redefined as “criminals,” and if they were caught attempting a second border crossing, as criminal “repeat immigration offenders.”
    . A Washington Post scare headline typically read: “ICE Immigration Arrests of Noncriminals Double Under Trump.” While accurate, it was nonetheless misleading. Non-criminal immigration arrests did indeed jump from 2,500 in the first three months of 2016 to 5,500 during the same period in 2017, while criminal arrests also rose, bringing the total to 21,000. Only 16,000 were arrested during the same months in 2016. The article, however, ignores the fact that 2016 was the all-time low year for arrests under President Obama. In the first three months of 2014, for example, 29,000 were arrested, far more than Trump’s three-month “record.”
    "A new immortal appeared in front of you. Would you like preparations of inception?"

  2. #12

  3. #13
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,488
    INTPx Award Winner
    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    Strawman.

    The issue is not jail vs ignore.
    Liar.

    Yes it is, under present law/policy, which was created because previous laws and policies weren't working.

    Jurisprudence always hurts and always has ugly secondary and tertiary effects.

    This effect I blame on the parents.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  4. #14
    Member Thoth's Avatar
    Type
    INFP
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    AHJ 2006
    Posts
    927
    Obvious sophomoric policy making is obvious.

    Trump is attempting to apply a routine passive aggressive managerial method in business to federal government; make the environment so toxic to the undesired party or parties they leave, or never approach in the first place. By making illegal immigration an overblown federal crime and throwing children into the fire his cabinet thinks they're creating a social deterrent for hopefuls wanting to enter the country. In reality all they're accomplishing is making smuggling a more lucrative and cutthroat business with higher stakes for the US whilst looking like comically maniacal villains from a Saturday morning cartoon.

  5. #15
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    13,488
    INTPx Award Winner
    Quote Originally Posted by Thoth View Post
    Obvious sophomoric policy making is obvious.

    Trump is attempting to apply a routine passive aggressive managerial method in business to federal government; make the environment so toxic to the undesired party or parties they leave, or never approach in the first place. By making illegal immigration an overblown federal crime and throwing children into the fire his cabinet thinks they're creating a social deterrent for hopefuls wanting to enter the country. In reality all they're accomplishing is making smuggling a more lucrative and cutthroat business with higher stakes for the US whilst looking like comically maniacal villains from a Saturday morning cartoon.
    If you can't win, fuck 'em up. It's all a giant playground.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  6. #16
    Cooler than Jesus
    Type
    intp
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,014
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    If citizen parents commit crimes that lead to jail time, we separate them from their children as well. Children do not render you immune from prosecution. Having a dependent or dependents you are responsible for isn't a free pass to ignore the law, but rather an excellent reason or reasons to comply.

    Children are being used as emotional levers on all sides of this ongoing issue of adult lawbreakers.

    Which makes more sense? Prosecute the children for their alleged parent's crimes? Or give carte blanche to adult misbehavior because they have a child with them?

    Neither answer has a pleasant outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptah View Post
    This is fucking stupid.

    If you are a parent, it is incumbent upon you to know what is the immigration standards/practices/policies of the country you are trying to enter with your children. It is the parents who are bringing their children to the US border. It is not the US border that is coming to them. The fault for any undesirable outcome of process afflicting them (or their children) is theirs. The same as it would be for walking your children over a lake of fire or a bed of nails.

    Can/should the laws be changed to be better or make more sense, etc? Perhaps. But that is irrelevant with regard the the above.
    Couldn't have stated it better myself, although there has to be better solutions than putting children in cages.

    I'm curious about what the Latin American news media is making of this.

  7. #17
    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Mañana
    Posts
    8,420
    INTPx Award Winner
    I can see how anyone who can afford to stay with their children right where they are would be an asshole for pulling them along a border where they can literally be kidnapped by law. Sure, I get that.

    But those kids weren't exactly sitting in a condo watching cartoons and eating cheerios when their mother decided to illegally pull them across a dangerous border. I mean, you can see it strictly from the point of view of a law being broken, but the reality is that many of those people are fleeing places with some of the world's highest murder rates, towns at the hands of drug lords, and precarious socio-economic and political situations which have been directly and indirectly created by US foreign policy (one example is Honduras, many Hondurans are seeking asylum - let's remember that Hillary literally brags about how the US supported a coup in that country).

    If you just see this as bad parenting, you're missing the big picture.

    Edit: And I don't always take the little guy's side, because I know that sometimes the little guy is a fucking moron. Case in point: Cubans fleeing Cuba. To leave a country where you are poor but can get by, and seek refugee status from the very country that's strangling yours with an embargo, is something I have no compassion or understanding for. What should be done with people of that moral caliber isn't even fit to post on the internet.
    Last edited by Madrigal; 06-18-2018 at 11:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Heh. We've been here years now.

  8. #18
    Cooler than Jesus
    Type
    intp
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,014
    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    I can see how anyone who can afford to stay with their children right where they are would be an asshole for pulling them along a border where they can literally be kidnapped by law. Sure, I get that.

    But those kids weren't exactly sitting in a condo watching cartoons and eating cheerios when their mother decided to illegally pull them across a dangerous border. I mean, you can see it strictly from the point of view of a law being broken, but the reality is that many of those people are fleeing places with some of the world's highest murder rates, towns at the hands of drug lords, and precarious socio-economic and political situations which have been directly and indirectly created by US foreign policy (one example is Honduras, many Hondurans are seeking asylum - let's remember that Hillary literally brags about how the US supported a coup in that country).

    If you just see this as bad parenting, you're missing the big picture.
    So why don't they go to, say, Mexico City? The murder rate there is only 5.4, which is lower than many places in the US.

    Many of these immigrants have safer options, they're just taking the risk for the better opportunity. Which, if they don't have children is perfectly understandable, but doing that with children is insane IMO. Here's one of the front page articles on Univision right now, this seems like a pretty typical case: https://www.univision.com/noticias/i...bergue-en-eeuu “Decidí que tenía que irme de Guatemala si quería darle un mejor futuro a mi hijo, quería que tuviera educación y me hacía ilusión poder quizás comprar una casa acá en mi país” She wants better schools and money so she can eventually buy a house in Guatemala.

  9. #19
    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
    Type
    INTP
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Mañana
    Posts
    8,420
    INTPx Award Winner
    Quote Originally Posted by Lud View Post
    So why don't they go to, say, Mexico City? The murder rate there is only 5.4, which is lower than many places in the US.

    Many of these immigrants have safer options, they're just taking the risk for the better opportunity. Which, if they don't have children is perfectly understandable, but doing that with children is insane IMO. Here's one of the front page articles on Univision right now, this seems like a pretty typical case: https://www.univision.com/noticias/i...bergue-en-eeuu “Decidí que tenía que irme de Guatemala si quería darle un mejor futuro a mi hijo, quería que tuviera educación y me hacía ilusión poder quizás comprar una casa acá en mi país” She wants better schools and money so she can eventually buy a house in Guatemala.
    Yes, maybe they should just go rent an apartment in Mexico City.

    Even when they do have safer options, many of them are ignorant and deluded as to just how unsafe their journey is going to be. People who have money to be made on those arrangements don't exactly sell them a realistic story. You think it's insane to do that with children but they may not see how insane it is. Or, maybe they do, and they think the kid is still way better off in a concentration camp in the USA than on the streets of Mexico City. *shrug* Doesn't make it right to treat them as dangerous criminals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Heh. We've been here years now.

  10. #20
    Cooler than Jesus
    Type
    intp
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,014
    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    Yes, maybe they should just go rent an apartment in Mexico City.

    Even when they do have safer options, many of them are ignorant and deluded as to just how unsafe their journey is going to be. People who have money to be made on those arrangements don't exactly sell them a realistic story. You think it's insane to do that with children but they may not see how insane it is. Or, maybe they do, and they think the kid is still way better off in a concentration camp in the USA than on the streets of Mexico City. *shrug* Doesn't make it right to treat them as dangerous criminals.
    Yeah, I'm not arguing that the U.S. is anything but evil for how exactly they're handling the situation. But that's not exactly news.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •