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Thread: Child safety

  1. #41
    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    What evidence do you have for this "pre-set timeline"
    .
    By "pre-set timeline" I mean there is a window of development which is typical, and that a parent cannot do much to enable their child to hit those milestones earlier than that window. I realize that it could be taken to mean that environmental factor has zero influence, and I don't want to portray that. It was more to convey that 11 month walking is normal, 14 month walking is normal, and it's inaccurate to assume that the 14month old is "delayed." As long as you are not inhibiting the child and exposing them to a range of motor experiences, the child will learn on his/her own timeline and it's all gravy.

    This info I've come by from trainings at work and conversations with pediatrician--there are a lot of websites like this but google is coming up short for academic/medical journals on the topic.

  2. #42
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    By "pre-set timeline" I mean there is a window of development which is typical, and that a parent cannot do much to enable their child to hit those milestones earlier than that window. I realize that it could be taken to mean that environmental factor has zero influence, and I don't want to portray that. It was more to convey that 11 month walking is normal, 14 month walking is normal, and it's inaccurate to assume that the 14month old is "delayed." As long as you are not inhibiting the child and exposing them to a range of motor experiences, the child will learn on his/her own timeline and it's all gravy.

    This info I've come by from trainings at work and conversations with pediatrician--there are a lot of websites like this but google is coming up short for academic/medical journals on the topic.
    Oh, so exposing the child to a range of motor experiences can help facilitate learning to walk? That sounds a lot different than you giving robcore shit about suggesting that letting his kids use the jolly jumper early helped them learn to walk.

  3. #43
    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    Oh, so exposing the child to a range of motor experiences can help facilitate learning to walk? That sounds a lot different than you giving robcore shit about suggesting that letting his kids use the jolly jumper early helped them learn to walk.
    Those jolly jumpers, johnny jump ups, exercise jumpers, etc are a dime a dozen. It is a common baby item, and it's common for parents not to follow age guidelines. We are not in a boom of having a shift earlier in motor developmental milestones because of these gadgets. If anything doctors are recommending that parents limit their use because of physical problems of overuse.

    Can watching older siblings do stuff that a baby wants to do, but can't, an environmental influence in their motivation and acquisition of walking skills? Sure.

    Myself, my sister, and my two sons both spent time in them growing up. We all began walking within normal developmental time period, but still at varying times.

  4. #44
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    This reminds me of my favorite part of childhood: wandering the local "wild". We made spears from shitty bamboo and failed to catch fish with them. We raced each other up steep hills, clambered over rocks, fought for possession of the high ground while waiting for the bus, and discovered different kinds of bugs. Etc, etc, etc. I have a hard time imagining a complete human who lacks such experience and the attendant risks.
    Most of time, when people ask why something terrible happened, they don't realize they are looking for someone to blame.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  5. #45
    Faster. Than. Ever. Sloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    The blowback is probably a little bit in response to what seems like a generalized culture of overprotective parenting that our society seems to be moving towards.
    Yeah I could tell you were projecting an argument that I wasn't actually making. I had a feeling you were going to do that which is why I stated on 4 separate occasions that I think it's important for kids to take risks and that I myself benefitted greatly from being able to take them.

    Didn't seem to matter though, and you construed my general point of "kids should be given limits at some point" into some controversial statement.

    At least this wasn't as bad as the time a member lost their shit on me for a post that someone else made in a thread that I never participated in. When I quoted the post they were reacting so strongly to, instead of apologizing or addressing the person who actually made the post they didn't like, he just said "well it sounded like something I think you would say".


    ...........

  6. #46
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    Those jolly jumpers, johnny jump ups, exercise jumpers, etc are a dime a dozen. It is a common baby item, and it's common for parents not to follow age guidelines. We are not in a boom of having a shift earlier in motor developmental milestones because of these gadgets. If anything doctors are recommending that parents limit their use because of physical problems of overuse.

    Can watching older siblings do stuff that a baby wants to do, but can't, an environmental influence in their motivation and acquisition of walking skills? Sure.

    Myself, my sister, and my two sons both spent time in them growing up. We all began walking within normal developmental time period, but still at varying times.
    My son was interested in walking, but took a seemingly analytical approach...when he started to walk, it seemed as though he'd given it enough thought, and he was just ready to do it.

    My first daughter was different...largely motivated by a desire to keep up with her brother. Her style of walking was far less deliberate...she basically just willed herself forward and let her motor skills catch up with the intention.

    My second daughter was not really concerned with her siblings at all. Even after she learned to walk, she'd get up, take a few steps, and sit down again...or wander off to explore things by herself...for her, it seemed like a tool that she acquired, but not a sort of goal or achievement or something 'special' like it was for the other two.

    Temperament definitely influences that approach to learning to walk...but the timeline can still be influenced quite a bit, even if 12 months or 14 months is still 'normal' and not delayed.

    Anyhow, the Jolly Jumper isn't the only thing we used. We'd also hold them up, before they could support their own weight, and let them experiment with moving their legs, and we'd lay them in our laps and do 'exercises' with their legs, and lots of tummy time when they were smaller, too. We'd also have a good mix of inward and outward facing time in baby carriers...maximizing their exposure to interacting with the world around them, while also ensuring plenty of snuggles and attachment time.

    Kids can learn a lot of stuff at incredibly young ages...sooner than most of us think. I think the critical factor is not timing, but sequence. There seem to be prerequisites to every development, so for example, the concept of sharing is too advanced for kids that have not yet developed an ego that can empathize with the notion that others have feelings, too. It all comes in time, because life is such that we keep encountering the things that prompt development, for the most part. Yeah, kids can learn to walk later, or jump on trampolines later, and generally achieve all the same things, just later.
    I mean, they can even learn to read later.
    There are plenty of professional athletes that started their sports later, too.

    I dunno...I was an early achiever, and haven't had issues with my joints...and my childhood was full of joy and exploration and adventure and freedom. I see no reason to be extra cautious, because, well, so far, so good...
    I'm with Sappho and Heph.
    My kids will play with fire and use knives, and play in the river...and I sure hope none of them dies or gets seriously injured...but I will not deprive them out of fear...I will just be extra diligent at striking a balance between high quality coaching, and letting them figure stuff out for themselves.
    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

  7. #47
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
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    At least I'm not doing this:

    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

  8. #48
    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robcore View Post
    My son was interested in walking, but took a seemingly analytical approach...when he started to walk, it seemed as though he'd given it enough thought, and he was just ready to do it.

    My first daughter was different...largely motivated by a desire to keep up with her brother. Her style of walking was far less deliberate...she basically just willed herself forward and let her motor skills catch up with the intention.

    My second daughter was not really concerned with her siblings at all. Even after she learned to walk, she'd get up, take a few steps, and sit down again...or wander off to explore things by herself...for her, it seemed like a tool that she acquired, but not a sort of goal or achievement or something 'special' like it was for the other two.

    Temperament definitely influences that approach to learning to walk...but the timeline can still be influenced quite a bit, even if 12 months or 14 months is still 'normal' and not delayed.

    Anyhow, the Jolly Jumper isn't the only thing we used. We'd also hold them up, before they could support their own weight, and let them experiment with moving their legs, and we'd lay them in our laps and do 'exercises' with their legs, and lots of tummy time when they were smaller, too. We'd also have a good mix of inward and outward facing time in baby carriers...maximizing their exposure to interacting with the world around them, while also ensuring plenty of snuggles and attachment time.

    Kids can learn a lot of stuff at incredibly young ages...sooner than most of us think. I think the critical factor is not timing, but sequence. There seem to be prerequisites to every development, so for example, the concept of sharing is too advanced for kids that have not yet developed an ego that can empathize with the notion that others have feelings, too. It all comes in time, because life is such that we keep encountering the things that prompt development, for the most part. Yeah, kids can learn to walk later, or jump on trampolines later, and generally achieve all the same things, just later.
    I mean, they can even learn to read later.
    There are plenty of professional athletes that started their sports later, too.

    I dunno...I was an early achiever, and haven't had issues with my joints...and my childhood was full of joy and exploration and adventure and freedom. I see no reason to be extra cautious, because, well, so far, so good...
    I'm with Sappho and Heph.
    My kids will play with fire and use knives, and play in the river...and I sure hope none of them dies or gets seriously injured...but I will not deprive them out of fear...I will just be extra diligent at striking a balance between high quality coaching, and letting them figure stuff out for themselves.
    I don't know if we're necessarily in disagreement of much.

    I understand being proud of your kids, especially if they hit milestones early. There is a toxic competitive element in some mommy circles, a competition of who has the superior baby or parenting skills judging by which baby rolled over first. Or the ones who agonize because their babies are developing normally, but wondering if they did something "wrong" because their babies aren't walking yet. I'm all for active participation in your own child's development and skill acquisition, but there's only a certain level of importance and ownership one should take about kids doing what they are hardwired to do.

  9. #49
    Dr.Awkward Robcore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    I don't know if we're necessarily in disagreement of much.

    I understand being proud of your kids, especially if they hit milestones early. There is a toxic competitive element in some mommy circles, a competition of who has the superior baby or parenting skills judging by which baby rolled over first. Or the ones who agonize because their babies are developing normally, but wondering if they did something "wrong" because their babies aren't walking yet. I'm all for active participation in your own child's development and skill acquisition, but there's only a certain level of importance and ownership one should take about kids doing what they are hardwired to do.
    The toxic competitive stuff is absolutely real...and not limited just to moms in its influence. That being said, having kids who are early at just about everything, it even makes you sensitive about sharing your kids' accomplishments...because people take it as shaming, or gloating, or whatever, even when it is not intended that way. Like, you can't even speak openly about the benefits of breastmilk without some mom who couldn't breastfeed going into a whole shame episode.
    I'm not sure what the cure for the toxicity is, but I don't think that sharing your kids' achievements and analyzing what you may have done to influence them should be suppressed...I mean, that's like suppressing science for fear that a discovery could make someone feel bad. It's probably the manner in which it is shared that's most critical...
    ...and people really do take things in ways they don't need to. Acceptance is harder when you're not winning...but shame is really only going to inhibit you further, right?

    I think we need more of a culture where parents connect and Mommy #1 can say, "gee, Billy is walking already? Sally seems to be taking her sweet time. What did you guys do to help him along?"
    With people having fewer kids, and with families being less connected with older generations, we really need a better way to transmit parenting wisdom than with babycenter.com. We need to synthesize old grandma wisdom for the masses.
    ...the origin of emotional sickness lay in people’s belief that they were their personalities...
    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." ~Carl Jung

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