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Thread: What if Jesus Christ:

  1. #21
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Jesus the man was probably a man who wanted to restore the Kingdom of Judah, driving out the Romans and the corrupt priests. That's what his words indicate. He never said that anyone should worship him or that he was God. He said clearly that his followers should worship the father, and follow Jewish law.

    The religion of Christianity was largely a concoction of Paul and other early Christians, people who weren't jews, spoke Greek and recognized the importance of their religion emphasizing Roman authority and not demanding adherence to strict Jewish laws if it were to spread and survive.

    And then modern Christianity, in its various forms, is always to some extent a product of the time in which it exists. Jesus and the cross are important symbols but with much different meanings in a modern context. You have to dig about as deep as anyone ever did to reach the timeless truths of divinity.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    I'm going to be the dummy that takes the OP semi-seriously, and say #4.

    The title of God mostly got foisted upon Jesus, he never took that on himself. He liked to refer to himself as Son of Man, but the term never caught on.
    My take on this is that he knew that he was the son of God but didn't want to acknowledge it initially because he realised that it would invoke an immediate response from the religious and political authorities. He understood that a response from the authorities was inevitable because of the revolutionary nature of message he was preaching but he wanted more time to complete his mission before they made their move against him. He did eventually acknowledge it when pressed by the authorities.
    On the wrong side of history

  3. #23
    malarkey oxyjen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reap View Post
    Well sadly I got a little out of what I wanted. I largely hoped for a debate on the nature of Christ, and then more serious possible lists of the nature continued from mine. But other responses got me contemplating whether anything is possible regarding the Son of Man's nature. That being said, I really enjoyed the responses from @oxyjen and @Pan_Sonic. They provide valuable insight into my decision making process of whether to have faith and become a Christian or not. Thanks you for your wise concern, O' seasoned philosopher!

    And oh, I just thought of 1 more:
    7) had anger management issues toward perceived bullies in all ways possible, such as monetary (tax payers) or prestige (nobles) or authority (elders) wise, etc.
    Jesus was pretty much the ultimate social justice leader.

    Ironically, those messages are pushed at the personal level whereas on a major cultural/societal level Christians uncannily resemble the Pharisees.

  4. #24
    WOKE Catoptric's Avatar
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    "Quo Vadis?"

    What if Jesus/Emmanuel never really looked like this:


    ?

    *****

    It's evident that much of the known historical accounts of the time seem inconsistent with the practices of crucifixion. In a Gnostic tradition such as the Gospel of Thomas they were speaking of Jesus (whom at the time people were talking of him/it? Jesus as an individual was not physically present,) and makes no reference to crucifixion and the like. Gnostic texts that were not presented in the canon of the Bible were revealed to have existed in the Nag Hammadi library, talking much in terms of a spiritual understanding (and nothing of a Romanized influence that seems to reiterate a death and resurrection common in other religions.) It was as if the New Testament was a creation by the Romans to create a political agenda, and what became the Catholics Bible was making a popularity contest within the vast swath of territories that would make up the Holy Roman Empire, and I suspect Jesus was part of a cult movement of some sorts that was influenced by ancient Egyptian baptismal ceremonies, but also perhaps some reference to a Priesthood of Melchizedek?



    Also it seems that a very clear reference to astrotheological components (perhaps something of a "mystery religion" with astronomy concealed within the forefront of communal religious practices; if you interpret things without knowledge as to a deeper meaning, the true message is practically lost in it's context) and the inconsistent story from the various books of the Bible, seems to either suggest very shoddy memory on those whom wrote it, or their inconsistencies were perhaps a way of making people question the meaning behind the stories of the bible?

    Jesus And The Hidden Contradictions Of The Gospels


    It should also be questioned as to whether Apostle Paul had some kind of agenda.

    Paul’s Gospel and Caesar’s Empire or you can also read (the bullet points in red text are what I'm referring to) The Apostle Paul Was A Deceiver!

    It seems evident that the Bible (for various reasons it would seem?) has numerous mixed messages; as if the texts were designed specifically with such differing views so as to create controversy in trying to justify making sense of it (much as how religions such as Islam have differing branches that conflict with each other; controversy breeds intrigue.)

    The story gets only weirder when you consider what it was referring to (was Jesus referred to as Lucifer?)

    IX | XI

    Last edited by Catoptric; Yesterday at 08:59 PM.

  5. #25
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    Jesus was pretty much the ultimate social justice leader.

    Ironically, those messages are pushed at the personal level whereas on a major cultural/societal level Christians uncannily resemble the Pharisees.
    Most of the people I see helping the homeless around here are part of church groups. The organizations that helped me the most when I was homeless were primarily funded by the catholic church, and supported by protestant churches and the ymca. And they offered services specifically for LGBT youth, without pushing any religious message at all.

    I live in a very liberal town that marches with "love trumps hate" signs and those same people are fighting to stop a homeless shelter from opening downtown.

    Most Christians aren't calling attention to themselves. Judging the whole religion based on the ones who are is like thinking that Islam is all about terrorism.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by NedLudd View Post
    Was a beta-male cuck soyboy libtard
    well to be fair he did kick over the tables of the money changers which was pretty badass. I can't see a cuck soy boy doing that

    In order to make offerings in the temple precinct you had to use the temple currency: the half sheckle, but the money changers started price fixing so that instead of swapping say a chicken for a half sheckle people had to swap two. This was a con and that's why their tables needed to be flipped

    They were taking the piss out of the common people

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    The religion of Christianity was largely a concoction of Paul and other early Christians, people who weren't jews,.
    Paul WAS a jew. His real name was Saul

    paul clashed with the apostles so clearly he was preaching a different message to the original church the head of which was Jesus's brother James

    Its likely that roman families like the Pisos did take the burgeoning belief system and rework, repackage and romanise it. Paul then pushed it to a larger audience

  8. #28
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    I'm an atheist, raised outside of any religious tradition at all. So I'm just repeating some stuff I read in the past.

    My understanding on the story of Jesus Christ:

    Jesus started out trying to reform Judaism. His earliest manifestations of religious fervor were discussions and debates within the temples and with the pharisees. But after clashing with church authorities on a number of occasions, he left the temples and started preaching to the masses. Even with the masses he got some pushback, and eventually the decision was made to start preaching to non-Jews.

    What was his message of reform?

    Basically, it seems that he might have been an adherent of one of the branches of Judaism that drew inspiration from "mystery religions." Certainly those who followed after him and crafted Christianity's message into its modern form drew heavily from the "mystery religions." From the Wikipedia article entitled "Mystery religion":

    Through the 1st to 4th century, Christianity stood in direct competition for adherents with the mystery schools, insofar as the "mystery schools too were an intrinsic element of the non-Jewish horizon of the reception of the Christian message". They too were "embraced by the process of the inculturation of Christianity in its initial phase", and they made "their own contribution to this process". In Klauck and McNeil's opinion, "the Christian doctrine of the sacraments, in the form in which we know it, would not have arisen without this interaction; and Christology too understood how to 'take up' the mythical inheritance, purifying it and elevating it".
    Some historians also tend to think that Jesus's teachings also incorporated a political (anti-Roman) aspect. They point to the fight in the Garden of Gethsemane where one of the disciples cuts off the ear of a soldier to show that at least some of Jesus's disciples were armed. But the argument goes that Paul and those who came after Jesus scrubbed the New Testament stories clean of any anti-Roman aspect. So it's difficult to discern much of that particular aspect of Christ's teachings.

    Finally, what's the story on the "mystery religions"?

    Again, I'm just repeating "some stuff I read in the past." But basically the mystery religions are supposed to be a throwback to the earlier fertility religions. The early fertility religions (prior to 2500 BC) supposedly included themes like animal totems, blood sacrifices, feasts and orgies incorporating eating the god (or a substitute for the god) which promised resurrection or eternal life like the crops blooming anew, etc. Some of these traditions show up in Christianity in aspects like transubstantiation, the Last Supper, sacrifice of the crucifixion, whippings, blood, stigmata, etc.

    The old fertility religions worshipped animals, hybrids, and earth gods. They eventually faded out with the rise of the Egyptian empire (after 2500 BC) and had been fully supplanted by the worship of "sky gods" by the time of the Greek and Roman empires and Judaism. But the "sky god" cults of the Judaism and the Greek and Roman gods were mostly attuned to the aristocrats. Some of the old fertility rites still circulated around among the uneducated masses. Another famous example of "mystery religions" existing at the margins of other more modern "sky cults": The Dionysian rites in the Greek religion.

    Thus, the incorporation of "mystery religions" into established religions had the effect of making a given religion more "populist." And that in turn may explain the successes of Christianity in following centuries. As the Greek and then Roman empires manifested themselves as large cities, there arose a need to find ways of dealing with large populaces. "Bread and circus" was one well-known strategy; if a "populist" religion that merged Judaism with some mystery rites was making inroads among the masses and didn't otherwise threaten the powers-that-be, then it might even be encouraged as a form of social control.

    Like I said, this is just "some stuff I read in the past."

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