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Thread: Critizing lifestyle choices, is it justified?

  1. #21
    Now we know... Asteroids Champion ACow's Avatar
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    Ok, is it just me, but has anyone ever actually seen anyone 'fat-shame' someone else in real life? I just want to know, is this something different about our experiences. Because quite frankly, I don't, at a basic level, care about articles on Facebook any more than I do articles on some pro-anorexia website. The real answer there is not read that shit.

    Back to an actual constructive engagement with the topics.

    I'd want to draw a line between 'shaming' and 'objectivity'. The former being something I can honestly say I've almost never witnessed on a variety of topics, the later which actually happens.

    So for instance, talking about:

    - Obese people have worse health outcomes (and should they pay for two seats instead of one on flights, for example?)
    - Smoking is addictive, increases the risk of cancer (and should smokers be banned/ostracized from public areas or places where it will affect non-consenting people)
    - Alcohol causes a lot of violence and bad health outcomes (and how should we manage issues of public intoxication and alcohol consumption)
    - Cars are really dangerous and kill a lot of people, put out carcinogenic exhaust and particulates, hurt the environment and social amenity, and have the general effect of make people generally fatter and unhealthier (and how should we design the urban environment and consider our lifestyles with that in mind).

    I don't view any of those discussions as shaming.

    But lets look at smoking and alcohol. I do want to live in a world where smoking is, on a general level, viewed as stupid (knowing what we now know about it) and intoxication and binge drinking is too.

    I don't view any of that as 'shaming'.

  2. #22
    凸(ಠ_ರೃ )凸 stuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinny View Post
    Like that's ever going to happen in the real world.

    In the real world, if fat people want to punch their nemeses, they'll have to jog and catch them first.
    Not to mention they'd have to let you back in the Nando's for the altercation to occur in the first place.

  3. #23
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    What I got from that whole "punch for a taunt" example wasn't that it was ok to punch people if they fat shame you, but rather that it was a forceful way to say that fat shaming people isn't ok at all....as in you should not fat shame people and you shouldn't punch them....it was in the vein of a modest proposal in that it carried the meanness to an absurd conclusion.
    Yep. Though as a kid, I did resolve most of my bully encounters with violence--because adults were fucking useless--but a quick act of violence took all the fun out of making fun of the quiet nerd. One of the perks of adulthood has been the need for such things all but vanished.
    People think they understand their own mortality, even when that understanding has just changed.

    --Meditations on Uncertainty Vol ξ(x)

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Yep. Though as a kid, I did resolve most of my bully encounters with violence--because adults were fucking useless--but a quick act of violence took all the fun out of making fun of the quiet nerd. One of the perks of adulthood has been the need for such things all but vanished.
    Much like punching, most overt fat shaming occurs in the young. Grownups are more subtle. I've traveled with my obese aunt and seen how invisible she is to the service industry.

    For the record, she does have a serious thyroid issue that requires medication to manage, and I've seen her successfully diet to lose a lot of weight only to have her waste away in the upper body and have zero change in her lower body. She's just never going to have the kind of body society deems beautiful no matter what she does. That's just the cards some people are dealt. I always thought she was beautiful though. Sort of worshiped her as a kid. She was extremely successful in a predominantly male profession and her career brought her all kinds of interesting places. Being invisible was a boon for her. Not being intimidating, being underestimated, being a little bit invisible...yeah, she broke some huge stories using that.

    I think the real difficult thing for her is that it is so easy for people to view the "fat girl" as bad. In media, "fat" is a shorthand for a whole plethora of traits, most of which have nothing to do with obesity, and none of which describe her. She's so nice it's ridiculous, but in her career, and in our extended family, I've seen bad actors successfully tar her and I've no doubt that it was easier because she is obese.
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle

  5. #25
    No Thank You Blorg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    Isn't anyone here familiar with the concept of "Sticks and stones..."?
    When I was a kid, anyone who used that line would be singled out as a subject to test the theory on - and of course everyone knew the reason such a kid would say it was that words did hurt them (plus they probably put too much stock in the teachers' conflict resolution advice).

    Even in the impossible hypothetical case that somebody mystically detaches themselves from their base instinct and doesn't experience physical assault as degrading: A taunt vs. a punch isn't a fair trade-off because a taunt only exists on one plane (abstract) while a punch exists on two (abstract and concrete).
    I don't think it can be systematized like this - which one is worse depends on context. In elementary school, there was a girl prone to physical outbursts (she's actually in prison now for kidnapping - unsurprising) along with general bullying behavior. I preferred when she got to the physical stage of anger. When it was at the verbal stage, I would normally take satisfaction in bullying her back, so I felt partly complicit. When it escalated to her shoving and kicking me, then I felt that I was clearly the bigger person, since I didn't shove back, and there was less of that painful moral ambiguity.

    As for the eye for an eye theory, I also think its suitability depends on context. For the labyrinthine struggles of in-/out-group manipulation that characterized the fights among girls when I was a kid, it wouldn't work, it would just add fuel to fire. There were literally moles like from Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. There's a reason you don't just impulsively assassinate enemy spies.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    What I got from that whole "punch for a taunt" example wasn't that it was ok to punch people if they fat shame you, but rather that it was a forceful way to say that fat shaming people isn't ok at all....as in you should not fat shame people and you shouldn't punch them....it was in the vein of a modest proposal in that it carried the meanness to an absurd conclusion.
    I got that it was "a forceful way of expressing that fat shaming isn't okay" ... But emotive words rarely move me, especially when related to virtue signalling, and I'm much more inclined to think about realistic outcomes.

    In reality, you're not going to persuade a bully with virtue signalling. The best way to persuade a bully is to put them in your shoes, either with exceptionally profound words, or a good slap around the face.

    I speak from the perspective of having been a bully... Of sorts anyways.. I was very much a protector of the weak, and I'd only bully those who I thought could take it or were fair game. (Because they're a cunt anyway).

    Bullying and/or talking advantage of the weak, isn't satisfying or challenging at all, and so is a lowly form of behaviour, lessening sense of self.

    Personally, I've always been my own largest critic, so the words of others rarely phase me, I've thought what they think and more. Of all the times I can think of that I wanted the ground to swallow me whole, it's mostly because of my own strong reaction & criticisms, and the constant sense of the lack of perfection. (I wonder if all Virgo's feel this way?)

    I think weak people spend too much time worrying about what others think. Really not caring, can be the most liberating thing of all.
    Last edited by Sinny; 04-22-2019 at 10:06 AM.
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)


  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinny View Post
    I got that it was "a forceful way of expressing that fat shaming isn't okay" ... But emotive words rarely move me, especially when related to virtue signalling, and I'm much more inclined to think about realistic outcomes.

    In reality, you're not going to persuade a bully with virtue signalling. The best way to persuade a bully is to put them in your shoes, either with exceptionally profound words, or a good slap around the face.

    I speak from the perspective of having been a bully... Of sorts anyways.. I was very much a protector of the weak, and I'd only bully those who I thought could take it or were fair game. (Because they're a cunt anyway).

    Bullying and/or talking advantage of the weak, isn't satisfying or challenging at all, and so is a lowly form of behaviour, lessening sense of self.

    Personally, I've always been my own largest critic, so the words of others rarely phase me, I've thought what they think and more. Of all the times I can think of that I wanted the ground to swallow me whole, it's mostly because of my own strong reaction & criticisms, and the constant sense of the lack of perfection. (I wonder if all Virgo's feel this way?)

    I think weak people spend too much time worrying about what others think. Really not caring, can be the most liberating thing of all.
    Giving a shit what others think does give them some control over you, but that only means you should be selective both about which people you give that power to, and even then, limit it only to areas in which that person has some sort of right to give a fuck. If you give it to the right people it can have a positive impact on your life.

    A caveat to this though, is that some people have power over you whether you give it to them or not, and at that point, you may have no choice but to care what they think.
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle

  8. #28
    Moderator Thoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACow View Post
    Ok, is it just me, but has anyone ever actually seen anyone 'fat-shame' someone else in real life? I just want to know, is this something different about our experiences.
    Yes, for many years I had a At The Moulin Rouge thing going with my closest friend during childhood. He was short and chubby while I was always tall and lanky.

    Our freshman year in high school his family returned from an aborted attempt to start a business in Florida where he and his brother got no exercise, so he came back to the old neighborhood even more fat than he had left and experienced a great deal of quiet ridicule. Where it took a turn to shaming was violence, about our second week into the year a wannabe Latin King cold cocked him during gym class for no other reasons than he was fat and an easy target.

    Later in life, my cousin got married to an obese woman who has much the same difficulties Sista described in her friend. She eats less than I do, does her best to get exercise, is certainly not lazy as a healthcare manager at a hospital, but cannot loose weight no matter what she does. I don't know all the nitty-gritty but I know she has a thyroid disorder that makes weight loss nearly impossible for her. That all said, my grandmother took several years to warm up to her solely because of her obesity.

    Fat shaming does exist.

    My stance on shaming as a whole is to first ask; would you like someone to shame you for a physical difference to the "norm" you might possess? If not, don't be that asshole.

    I will, however, not defend people who accuse others of shaming just to validate their own unhealthy or dangerous lifestyle, especially if it's at the cost of others who might not know better, i.e. children.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    Acow,

    Actually, no.

    We're all very British over here, and we might pass comment behind a fat persons back, but always politely, never mention it in front of them.

    I have one obese friend. Never commented on it. I'm pretty sure she's aware and don't give a fuck.
    Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

    ~ Robert Jackson, Statesman (1892-1954)


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