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Thread: Veganism

  1. #41
    No Thank You Blorg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACow View Post
    Isn't that kind of the nature of the beast though? That is to say, that veganism IS an extreme, and let's call a spade a spade, essentially irrational arbitrary extension past either environmentalism or ethical vegetarianism or nutrition.
    I find the opposition to veganism not only far more vocal, but at least equally (and often more) irrational, since they normally fail to substantiate their claims that veganism is bad on any other level than "it's annoying to me." Veganism has well-corroborated health benefits from reputable studies whereas eating red meat has possible health risks.

    (I'm a meat-eater.)

  2. #42
    Now we know... Asteroids Champion ACow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jigglypuff View Post
    how are you defining veganism?

    do you not see environmental veganism as a thing? cuz it totally is (and i imagine we'll see a rise in that in the coming years/decades).
    Quickly, I'm defining vegetarianism as essentially the "no meat" diet, and vegan as "no meat, no food product derivative of an animal (however you meaningfully or non-meaningfully define that)". This is in the context of living in a context that has a distinction between them. In practice around here vegan also means no "animal product", again, however you meaningfully define that.

    When I say "veganism is an extreme" I mean literally that its further/separate from general principals of ethical vegetarianism or environmentalism (which is also pretty dominant where I live). Its a relatively hard barrier of defined behaviour, in that if you drink milk you're no longer a vegan because...well, by definition, that's not what a vegan is.

    Like if i said "oh, i really don't like how people go to extremes with calling me a non-smoker, cause I smoke one or two and now I'm no longer considered a non-smoker". Well...yes, indeed, because being a non-smoker is defined by the action of not-smoking. (although I have had the similar conversation actually recently with someone about how the point shouldn't be being a non-smoker, but doing your best to cut down on harmful activities).

    Anyway, aside from that, I'm confused because vegetarianism has been a thing for ages, as has environmentalism, but veganism (as distinct from those two) has become almost mainstream over the least few years...and while I can come at the vegetarians in terms of pragmatic ethics, and ditto with environmentalism, I just can't really understand people who deem beekeeping or eating eggs from hens you keep etc as unethical. And it raises the real question of how worm farming is regarded :\ (Well, it would if i thought they should be taken seriously.)

    Also, again, I don't consider it equivalent to environmentalism or vegetarianism. Indeed with the amount of relatively bad farming practices, veganism (or vegetarianism for that matter) doesn't negate the general issues with large scale industrial farming, and I imagine depending on where you live, crops like soy, corn, rice, etc, could be farmed very irresponsibly or with various ethical and environmental concerns.

    Now, if that's not the version of "vegan" everyone is talking about...then, well, that's cool, i guess, whatever floats one's boat, but then I'm a bit like "where the hell did the desire to call these things vegan come from? Hasn't everyone just been doing them for the last XX years and they certainly weren't vegan then?"
    Last edited by ACow; 09-11-2019 at 11:52 AM.

  3. #43
    Now we know... Asteroids Champion ACow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blorg View Post
    I find the opposition to veganism not only far more vocal, but at least equally (and often more) irrational, since they normally fail to substantiate their claims that veganism is bad on any other level than "it's annoying to me." Veganism has well-corroborated health benefits from reputable studies whereas eating red meat has possible health risks.

    (I'm a meat-eater.)
    To be fair, you're right in that there's also some weird (although I guess weird when it comes to humans is relative) people who feel threatened by vegan/vegetarians and seem to take that out vocally on alternatives or anyone who's lifestyle is deemed different...

  4. #44
    Now we know... Asteroids Champion ACow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarydoor View Post
    Why do you think it's extreme? I don't find it extreme at all. My experience is that I would just avoid eating some things, sometimes...

    What do you mean? "their reasons aren't even for veganism" ? Not really sure what you mean.

    Firstly, a few people get really upset about disagreements on "The Definition". (I find that kind of funny too)

    I would define veganism as the attempt to minimise the amount of animal related stuff you consume. I think it's more of an ideal. Something you aim to do as well as you can. You could always find some area to get a bit closer to the ideal, but reach a limit of how much you want to do. (... like basically everything in life... )

    The reasons people have for minimising, I think, aren't really that important. I mean they're important to the individual. But I think they should not be a point of concern for anyone else. (just as a general observation, I find it quite funny that other people are often quite interested in dissecting the validity of others' personal reasoning for being vegan, while also claiming vegans are judgemental. Some are. But again, it's funny how hypocritical we all are)
    Well, it seems quite clear now we're talking about different things. Though if I may...I'm a bit like...how/why would you deem that veganism? Am I just an unhip old fogey like...trying to put labels on you young kids or something? Although honestly this sounds to me like kids putting labels on themselves?

    /PS You're all destroying language! I'd be lying if i said that didn't bother me somewhat...

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACow View Post
    Well, it seems quite clear now we're talking about different things. Though if I may...I'm a bit like...how/why would you deem that veganism? Am I just an unhip old fogey like...trying to put labels on you young kids or something? Although honestly this sounds to me like kids putting labels on themselves?

    /PS You're all destroying language! I'd be lying if i said that didn't bother me somewhat...
    It's all grey.

    Take the strict definition of "vegan" and probably no one is that. That's why I think it's stupid and it should be more about striving towards that. Take the strict definition, and you open it up to retarded comments like "well, money is made with animals, and you use money" etc. And it's all fucking pointless. A lot of people take a similar view. But we like to label things and people for some reason.

    You've probably met some slightly retarded people.

    I worked on a chicken farm once for 3 hours, and I would seek to avoid eating eggs from there, because I think it's all not great. Eggs from my Mum's place: probably alright (although I find eggs a bit gross just superficially). Honey: I think it's alright. But who gives a fuck what I think. Veganism is striving towards those ideals of reducing harm to other things, and everyone is going to be committed to that to various degrees. It seems completely pointless to me to pass judgement on anyone else according to how well they're achieving their personal ideals. It's just weird.

  6. #46
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    However unrealistic the strict definition, the movement on the whole takes a hard stance.

    One issue contested is unnecessary harm. To a vegan anything animal-based constitutes unnecessary harm, not due to some measure of cruelty but by virtue of human interference. I don't think that follows. With factory conditions, I get it, we shouldn't accept poor treatment as a standard. What's purported is that animals are better off living completely independently from us, notwithstanding the fact that animals suffer in the wild also. If we exploit them but do it respectfully I don't see how this is inherently worse.

    Then there's the fact that our domesticated chickens and livestock are freaks of nature that don't really live in the wild. If PETA's record is of any indication, as vegans would have it they'd all either be slaughtered or left to figure things out.
    "All my heroes are dead" - John Zorn

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  7. #47
    Senior Member Senseye's Avatar
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    Veganism/vegetarianism for environmental sake is pure virtue signalling. I'm fairly certain meat/dairy will never become unpopular on a wide spread basis, so the measurable impact on the planet from the 5% (or whatever) of the planet that goes veggie is simply not going to have any sort of measurable impact.

    If you think it's a healthier way to live, or maybe just gives you personally more peace of mind, fill your boots, but you shouldn't delude yourself it makes any real difference.

    I'm ranting a bit because I get on the same tangent when people get on about banning plastic straws/bags etc. I think that has a bit of an impact on reducing the amount of garbage/litter around, but as far as emissions reductions and all that, please. Not noticeable.

  8. #48
    Now we know... Asteroids Champion ACow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarydoor View Post
    It's all grey.

    Take the strict definition of "vegan" and probably no one is that..
    Well, yes, hence it's an extreme position. And why the word was invented. To demarcate a more extreme position from just vegetarians.

    I also knew a "Christian" once, that deemed one didn't have to actually believe in Jesus, the bible, or faith.

    And the number of straight men hanging out in gay saunas...my lawd.

    And to be fair, i don't consider that the fundamentalist wing, which recognises my earlier point, that veganism isn't inherently environmental or ethical, because modern farming techniques of crops involve land clearing, subsidies and animal feed disposal etc.

    But it's not (ideally) about passing judgement on people because of doing their best, but when their best begins to conflict with reality or is based on falsehoods.

    A general example is the definition of exploitation: I think vegan notions of exploitation go too far given that practically all life is symbiotic and requires the fruits and labors of other organisms.

    And the morality system that seems to believe suffering is minimised via lack of human participation. Would a vegan be for or against animal population controls, culling, back burning, land stewardship, etc. Nature is some nasty shit, and one can be against factory farming without thinking human non- participation results in an idealised world.

    That's why, without touching on the meat issue or nutrition issue, I wouldn't want to consider veganism bye associated with veganism

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senseye View Post
    Veganism/vegetarianism for environmental sake is pure virtue signalling. I'm fairly certain meat/dairy will never become unpopular on a wide spread basis, so the measurable impact on the planet from the 5% (or whatever) of the planet that goes veggie is simply not going to have any sort of measurable impact.

    If you think it's a healthier way to live, or maybe just gives you personally more peace of mind, fill your boots, but you shouldn't delude yourself it makes any real difference.

    I'm ranting a bit because I get on the same tangent when people get on about banning plastic straws/bags etc. I think that has a bit of an impact on reducing the amount of garbage/litter around, but as far as emissions reductions and all that, please. Not noticeable.
    "virtue signalling". I disagree. How hard is it to imagine that some people think it's worth doing, purely for its own sake? That those people don't agree with your belief that it's not having a measurable impact?

    Personally I don't like to ever mention I'm vegetarian, because people often go all sorts of weird when. And I know a lot of people don't see it as a virtue. (I went on a date with a girl once, who when I didn't order meat accused me of being vegetarian, and then went on a big rant about some random issue she had)

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACow View Post
    Well, yes, hence it's an extreme position. And why the word was invented. To demarcate a more extreme position from just vegetarians.

    I also knew a "Christian" once, that deemed one didn't have to actually believe in Jesus, the bible, or faith.

    And the number of straight men hanging out in gay saunas...my lawd.

    And to be fair, i don't consider that the fundamentalist wing, which recognises my earlier point, that veganism isn't inherently environmental or ethical, because modern farming techniques of crops involve land clearing, subsidies and animal feed disposal etc.

    But it's not (ideally) about passing judgement on people because of doing their best, but when their best begins to conflict with reality or is based on falsehoods.

    A general example is the definition of exploitation: I think vegan notions of exploitation go too far given that practically all life is symbiotic and requires the fruits and labors of other organisms.

    And the morality system that seems to believe suffering is minimised via lack of human participation. Would a vegan be for or against animal population controls, culling, back burning, land stewardship, etc. Nature is some nasty shit, and one can be against factory farming without thinking human non- participation results in an idealised world.

    That's why, without touching on the meat issue or nutrition issue, I wouldn't want to consider veganism bye associated with veganism
    The way I've interpreted the word may seem odd. But... I think you consider it for a while, one would see it's the best.

    There can be a lot of judgemental behaviour between vegans "they're not a real vegan" etc, or when one attempts that lifestyle but struggles to remove one food item, or something. But, take the most 'extreme' of those vegans, who has removed as much reliance on animal stuff from their life, and you can probably still find some way that they're not perfect. E.g. I think plastic might be not technically vegan, maybe. So, my thoughts are, what's the fucking point. And then you see newspaper articles "almond milk might not be vegan because it's got 0.01% of some thing!! Vegans, your whole life is ruined now!" There are people out there obsessed with finding these things. Should vegans cut out plastic and everything else too? Make sure their clothes are made ethically? We're all fucking up stuff somewhere. So, it just seems completely logical to me that the real intent should be to do as much as you can to minimise use of stuff that results in unnecessary harm to other animals. Leave it up to the individual to decide how far they want to go, whether it's vegetarian, vegan, or also making sure their non food items are free from animal exploitation.

    Perhaps it's more semantically right to say "I strive to be vegan". And, basically what I would say is that all "vegans" are actually just "striving to be...", because I think it's essentially almost impossible. So in my mind I'm kind of just making that replacement.

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