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Thread: Veganism

  1. #31
    Meae Musae Servus Hephaestus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarydoor View Post
    I was going to just mention how b12 actually comes from dirt. And so if we want to idealise going back to earlier ways of living, we could eat unwashed vegetables which would contain b12.

    But then I came across a mention that cows etc are given supplements too. Sometimes b12 supplements.

    https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/livestoc...eep-and-cattle





    https://www.farmhealthonline.com/dis...ency-in-sheep/

    So, people should eat meat because getting a b12 injection/vitamin supplements is unnatural. And animals need b12 injections or vitamin supplements so they get enough b12. This is new knowledge to me. I find it quite funny at the contradictions in thinking. \_(ツ)_/

    Also, given that b12 is just bacteria found in grass that we now wash off our food before eating so we avoid some nasty stuff, I don't see how it's so bad to just add it back in.
    I think you'll find no shortage of people objecting to livestock getting supplements. Some because they don't trust any sort of injectable, and others because it means you're raising your herd wrong--in the case of both those articles, the problem stems from grazing their herd on an unsuitable range. Therefore in both the case of human and livestock B12 supplementation, the need is the result of poor diet.
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  2. #32
    unbeknownst Lilith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarydoor View Post
    I was going to just mention how b12 actually comes from dirt. And so if we want to idealise going back to earlier ways of living, we could eat unwashed vegetables which would contain b12.

    But then I came across a mention that cows etc are given supplements too. Sometimes b12 supplements.

    https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/livestoc...eep-and-cattle





    https://www.farmhealthonline.com/dis...ency-in-sheep/

    So, people should eat meat because getting a b12 injection/vitamin supplements is unnatural. And animals need b12 injections or vitamin supplements so they get enough b12. This is new knowledge to me. I find it quite funny at the contradictions in thinking. \_(ツ)_/

    Also, given that b12 is just bacteria found in grass that we now wash off our food before eating so we avoid some nasty stuff, I don't see how it's so bad to just add it back in.
    You had me at dirt. WTF.

    https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vi...hProfessional/
    Last edited by Lilith; 09-09-2019 at 04:09 AM. Reason: unnecessary language

  3. #33
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    B12 is made by bacteria, not animals. Humans are not good hosts for the bacteria that make B12 and our food supply is too clean to get it off plants. So we either get it by eating animals, who are getting it from the bacteria that live in their system, or we supplement.
    Also, studies have shown that not all vegans become B12 deficient. There is a lot about the microbiome that we don't understand.

  4. #34
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    ^ yeah exactly. That's what I meant.

    The point is, people are saying "I won't become vegan because then I'd need to take b12 supplements" while eating animals that need to take b12 supplements. And antibiotic supplements. And... \_(ツ)_/

  5. #35
    schlemiel Faust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarydoor View Post
    ^ yeah exactly. That's what I meant.

    The point is, people are saying "I won't become vegan because then I'd need to take b12 supplements" while eating animals that need to take b12 supplements. And antibiotic supplements. And... \_(ツ)_/
    Yeah the appeal to the "natural" in the capacity of cultivation doesn't make sense since agriculture in itself is heavily engineered and always has been. In terms of diets however, we've never seen evidence of a traditional vegan society. Notwithstanding B12, there's more going on here taken for granted, between amino acids, saturated fat, etc. Just because veganism's been facilitated by modern means doesn't mean it should be discounted for that reason, but that aside, not everyone's bodies seem to respond well to veganism as it is. This requires more research. I don't doubt it can be made viable for everyone but may require better supplementation, or engineering, than what's current.

    We can pat ourselves on the back for environmental considerations, but even with a collective effort to change habits, the outcome is worse than zero-sum if the population grows indefinitely. We have to stop chasing growth.
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  6. #36
    Now we know... Asteroids Champion ACow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarydoor View Post
    I'm always confused at how we in general have an all or nothing view on this. For instance the definitions of vegan often seem to be interpreted as that if you consume a tiny amount of a dairy product incidentally in some food, because you didn't read the label properly, then you're no longer a vegan and you're no longer "saving the planet". That's full on retarded in my opinion. If you think something's worth doing then you should do it a little bit, however much you want to.
    Isn't that kind of the nature of the beast though? That is to say, that veganism IS an extreme, and let's call a spade a spade, essentially irrational arbitrary extension past either environmentalism or ethical vegetarianism or nutrition.

    I admit a total confusion as to the surge of vegan popularity, partly because I can't square it wholly with the three above points, but I'm presuming that might just be me and that's what vegans believe they're doing? Even if we try to avoid the whole eating animals thing, the symbiotic relationship between all life seems defacto obvious to me, and i can't see a distinction between me and my worms, or me and my bees, chickens, etc.

    And when I go to vegan websites and ask "why vegan" half of their reasons aren't even for veganism (they're for primary plant based diets and environmentalism... which does have evidence, but again, isn't veganism.

    / confused and lonely in the vegan belt...

  7. #37
    chaotic neutral shitpost jigglypuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACow View Post
    And when I go to vegan websites and ask "why vegan" half of their reasons aren't even for veganism (they're for primary plant based diets and environmentalism... which does have evidence, but again, isn't veganism.
    how are you defining veganism?

    do you not see environmental veganism as a thing? cuz it totally is (and i imagine we'll see a rise in that in the coming years/decades).




    i disagree with vegetarianism/veganism being "difficult" diets to adopt. i think it depends on what you consider your "default" diet. it's harder if you're used to the typical western diet or used to a diet of a region not suitable for growing crops where traditionally people have had to hunt for food, which personally i have no problem with.*

    for me, it would've been way harder to make a point of eating meat every day than to simply cut out what meat i already was eating, based on my omnivore diet.

    also, unless you're actually hunting for your food and not buying any commercial meat products from stores, i don't think arguments for meat-eating being more "natural" really apply unless there is some great argument i've never heard for mass industrial processing of animals being "natural."

    *edit: i'm assuming out of necessity.
    Last edited by jigglypuff; 09-10-2019 at 11:52 PM.
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  8. #38
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    I don't know why veganism would be difficult. High quality legumes are cheap as fuck, easy to store, and last a long time. The only high quality non-vegan staple that even comes close is eggs. And actually I think if you try to go for the organic free-range eggs, which is what I would consider high quality, they are also quite expensive (unless you have your own chickens).

    I don't even know what we're all arguing about anymore.

    Veganism for health reasons is whatever you make of it. You are going to be healthier eating a high quality omnivorous diet of whole foods than a shitty vegan diet of soy protein isolate burgers and fries.

    Veganism for animal rights seems reasonable, though I personally think there's nothing wrong with people eating humanely raised and killed animals.

    I don't like the idea of killing animals. I don't think I could do it myself. I don't feel more okay with it if some poor person is doing the dirty work for me. So I don't eat things I wouldn't be comfortable killing. I am still squeamish about fish, so I will probably revisit the idea of eating fish vs. going full vegan (or maybe eggs only) in the near future.

    I also think plant based diets are more efficient, because you're cutting out the middle man. Or the middle cow, as the case may be.

  9. #39
    know nothing pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Going veg "for the environment" is so overblown right now. Agriculture is 13% of US emissions, and of that 42% is animal agriculture. It's just the next version of recycling, something for the people who care to focus on to make them feel like they're doing something. Go ahead and be veg while China builds a new coal plant every week, it's just as useful as all the effort you put into sorting your plastic so we could ship it to China for them to dump into the ocean. /doom

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACow View Post
    Isn't that kind of the nature of the beast though? That is to say, that veganism IS an extreme, and let's call a spade a spade, essentially irrational arbitrary extension past either environmentalism or ethical vegetarianism or nutrition.

    I admit a total confusion as to the surge of vegan popularity, partly because I can't square it wholly with the three above points, but I'm presuming that might just be me and that's what vegans believe they're doing? Even if we try to avoid the whole eating animals thing, the symbiotic relationship between all life seems defacto obvious to me, and i can't see a distinction between me and my worms, or me and my bees, chickens, etc.
    Why do you think it's extreme? I don't find it extreme at all. My experience is that I would just avoid eating some things, sometimes. Perhaps it depends quite a bit on your current lifestyle. If the diet you're used to involves lots of animal-related stuff, then it would be a big change, and so could be thought of as extreme. Some people who appear to represent it are extreme, but I like to think of it as similar to if we let teenage militant atheists represent atheists: it's not a representation most of us would accept.

    And when I go to vegan websites and ask "why vegan" half of their reasons aren't even for veganism (they're for primary plant based diets and environmentalism... which does have evidence, but again, isn't veganism.

    / confused and lonely in the vegan belt...
    What do you mean? "their reasons aren't even for veganism" ? Not really sure what you mean.

    Firstly, a few people get really upset about disagreements on "The Definition". (I find that kind of funny too)

    I would define veganism as the attempt to minimise the amount of animal related stuff you consume. I think it's more of an ideal. Something you aim to do as well as you can. You could always find some area to get a bit closer to the ideal, but reach a limit of how much you want to do. (... like basically everything in life... )

    The reasons people have for minimising, I think, aren't really that important. I mean they're important to the individual. But I think they should not be a point of concern for anyone else. (just as a general observation, I find it quite funny that other people are often quite interested in dissecting the validity of others' personal reasoning for being vegan, while also claiming vegans are judgemental. Some are. But again, it's funny how hypocritical we all are)

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