# Thread: "Line numbers" finding a number for any 2D line based symbol

1. Originally Posted by Hephaestus
The length of the diagonals of a regular pentagon are in golden ratio to their sides. So that's the golden ratio five times. Different way of counting, but it's five.
https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry/pentagram.html
A pentagram has the golden ratio three times along each side...

A star also contains a pentagon, which makes the points of the star superfluous, and again, marks it as an odd shape out compared to the others because of how elaborate it is.
Well it is also what I call "spirit" energy, which is special.

"In my system a line can be curvy - e.g. using two to form a heart symbol. A circle is a curved line that joins onto itself."

Messy.
I think it is elegant. Many symbols have curved lines in them. So how many lines would you give these:
https://linenum.com/images/5-energies.png
How many lines in the heart symbol or the water symbols?

Don't all those arrows add lines to your figures? If not, then when do you decide which lines count and which ones don't? How would someone trying to learn your system be able to know when they saw a new shape without asking you to count it up for them?
The arrow heads are for clarity, they aren't separate lines. An alternative is to have the lines in different colors.

"If I had to make a symbol with no lines, it would be a dot."

Difficult to read by comparison to the other symbols.
It would be the thickness of the lines, which could be quite noticeable but I don't plan on representing zero much. Apparently many cultures didn't have a representation of zero.

2. Originally Posted by JohnClay
https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry/pentagram.html
A pentagram has the golden ratio three times along each side...
Like I said, a different way of counting. And it comes up with five. How is having the golden ratio 3 different ways per "line" (not really per side because there are 10 sides to a pentagram, and in a regular pentagram, the kind you're working with, they're in a 1:1 ratio with each other), but how is having the golden ratio "three times" relevant to the number five.

Well it is also what I call "spirit" energy, which is special.
Not gonna touch woo-woo bullshit. You wanna talk number theory, cool. You wanna set up a number cult, I just ask you get the math right, because you might find something interesting. It's happened before. But if you're gonna argue from horseshit pulled out of your ass, I ain't got time for that.

I think it is elegant. Many symbols have curved lines in them. So how many lines would you give these:
https://linenum.com/images/5-energies.png
How many lines in the heart symbol or the water symbols?
I think it fails to be a system. You're claiming to have a system, I'm asking questions about it. How do you determine what is or isn't a line?

{0, 1 or 2}, {0, 1 or 2}, {1, 2, 3, or 4}, {0, 3, 4, or 8}, {4, 5 (two ways), or 6}

The arrow heads are for clarity, they aren't separate lines. An alternative is to have the lines in different colors.
The arrow heads aren't adding clarity because I can't tell if they're lines or not. And what about when someone sees a new shape? One that you haven't declared a number for? If this is a system, shouldn't someone be able to apply it to figure out how many lines there are?

How many lines are there in an arrow? How many lines in a single line? How could I tell if something was an arrow or a single line with a decorative arrowhead for clarity?

It would be the thickness of the lines, which could be quite noticeable but I don't plan on representing zero much. Apparently many cultures didn't have a representation of zero.
Any culture that plans to do good maths does. But your system could restrict itself to natural numbers.

If you're really interested in this sort of thing, I recommend looking into topology, and the Chinese written language. The former is all about classifying shapes by various features, and could help you identify ways to shore up your idea. The latter is an example of how to identify lines as counting the number of strokes (and knowing the stroke order) is crucial to using a Chinese dictionary.

3. Originally Posted by Hephaestus
Like I said, a different way of counting. And it comes up with five. How is having the golden ratio 3 different ways per "line" (not really per side because there are 10 sides to a pentagram, and in a regular pentagram, the kind you're working with, they're in a 1:1 ratio with each other), but how is having the golden ratio "three times" relevant to the number five.
https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry/pentagram.html
Having the golden ratio three times per side (in different segments) just makes the star more significant.

Not gonna touch woo-woo bullshit. You wanna talk number theory, cool. You wanna set up a number cult, I just ask you get the math right, because you might find something interesting. It's happened before. But if you're gonna argue from horseshit pulled out of your ass, I ain't got time for that.
It is partly meant as an improvement on the 4 elements and the chakras. (note this is the philosophy and spirituality forum) (though in that sense it is somewhat arbitrary)

I think it fails to be a system. You're claiming to have a system, I'm asking questions about it. How do you determine what is or isn't a line?
If it curves smoothly, it is still part of the same line. If it bends sharply it is a new line (which explains why I think the heart symbol has 2 lines and the water symbol has 4, etc)

{0, 1 or 2}, {0, 1 or 2}, {1, 2, 3, or 4}, {0, 3, 4, or 8}, {4, 5 (two ways), or 6}
Well I think I can determine the number of lines for anything precisely (except the yin yang symbol is ambiguous) That is the whole point of this - to be objective rather than arbitrary. So I don't see the advantage in your highly arbitrary system.

The arrow heads aren't adding clarity because I can't tell if they're lines or not.
Well on my site I say things like "the circle has 1 line", etc. That makes it clear.

And what about when someone sees a new shape? One that you haven't declared a number for? If this is a system, shouldn't someone be able to apply it to figure out how many lines there are?
Yes exactly.

How many lines are there in an arrow?
If it is part of a diagram there is one line.

How many lines in a single line?
One.

How could I tell if something was an arrow or a single line with a decorative arrowhead for clarity?
If it says "a circle has 1 line" then it is all part of one line.

Any culture that plans to do good maths does. But your system could restrict itself to natural numbers.
Yes

If you're really interested in this sort of thing, I recommend looking into topology,
Ok

and the Chinese written language. The former is all about classifying shapes by various features, and could help you identify ways to shore up your idea. The latter is an example of how to identify lines as counting the number of strokes (and knowing the stroke order) is crucial to using a Chinese dictionary.
As far as strokes go, if they drew a square without lifting the pen off the paper, how many strokes is that?

4. Originally Posted by JohnClay
https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry/pentagram.html
Having the golden ratio three times per side (in different segments) just makes the star more significant.
How? In what way? As compared to what? To what purpose? To maximize your internal woo-woo? How is that objective?

If it curves smoothly, it is still part of the same line. If it bends sharply it is a new line (which explains why I think the heart symbol has 2 lines and the water symbol has 4, etc)
This might be a real rule. That's a start.

Well I think I can determine the number of lines for anything precisely (except the yin yang symbol is ambiguous) That is the whole point of this - to be objective rather than arbitrary. So I don't see the advantage in your highly arbitrary system.
The point of my challenges is that you haven't defined an objective system. The numbers I came up with are all from different ways of applying what you've described so far to each of those shapes. It's not my system. It's yours, and it's unclear because it's poorly defined.

Well on my site I say things like "the circle has 1 line", etc. That makes it clear.
I disagree, because if I see a partial circle with an arrowhead at one end, I don't know if I'm seeing your clarified circle or a different symbol that has an arrowhead.

Yes exactly.

If it is part of a diagram there is one line.
What? Wouldn't every picture of an arrow be a line with an arrowhead that is part of a diagram? Does that mean in your system you never count lines in arrowhead shapes?

If it says "a circle has 1 line" then it is all part of one line.
Unclear. So anytime I see a picture of an arrow, if it has a caption that reads "a circle has one line" then it has one line? And what about the diagram rule? And when is a line drawing not a diagram?

Try writing a set of instructions, in list form, for how to analyze a shape and determine what is and isn't a line.

As far as strokes go, if they drew a square without lifting the pen off the paper, how many strokes is that?
The method of drawing a square is rigidly defined. There is no variation other than size and location, and those are defined by the character you are drawing them in.

In Chinese writing, a square has three strokes. Always, and always done in the same order using the same strokes.

5. Originally Posted by Hephaestus
How? In what way? As compared to what? To what purpose? To maximize your internal woo-woo? How is that objective?
A pentagram has more instances of the golden ratio than a pentagram. In mysticism it is seen as more significant than a pentagon. A pentagram is also more distinct than a pentagon.

"If it curves smoothly, it is still part of the same line. If it bends sharply it is a new line (which explains why I think the heart symbol has 2 lines and the water symbol has 4, etc)"

This might be a real rule. That's a start.
Yes that is my internal rule but I haven't mentioned it much.

The point of my challenges is that you haven't defined an objective system.
I have internally but I hadn't formally explicitly mentioned it. BTW the tear drop shape has one line in my system - it begins and ends at the point the line bends sharply.

The numbers I came up with are all from different ways of applying what you've described so far to each of those shapes. It's not my system. It's yours, and it's unclear because it's poorly defined.
Well I didn't define it explicitly until now.

I disagree, because if I see a partial circle with an arrowhead at one end, I don't know if I'm seeing your clarified circle or a different symbol that has an arrowhead.
It says it is a circle so it would be a partial circle.

What? Wouldn't every picture of an arrow be a line with an arrowhead that is part of a diagram? Does that mean in your system you never count lines in arrowhead shapes?
If it says an arrow has 3 lines, then it is 3 lines rather than one.

Unclear. So anytime I see a picture of an arrow, if it has a caption that reads "a circle has one line" then it has one line? And what about the diagram rule? And when is a line drawing not a diagram?
These problems are mainly due to the trademark problems.

Try writing a set of instructions, in list form, for how to analyze a shape and determine what is and isn't a line.
1. If an arrow-head is used to clarify where a line is, the two lines of the arrow-head don't add to the line count
2. If a line can be continued on as part of a smooth curve then it should, to minimize the number of lines
3. If a line bends sharply, then that is the beginning and end of lines (e.g. in a tear-drop shape, the top is the beginning and end of a line)

The method of drawing a square is rigidly defined. There is no variation other than size and location, and those are defined by the character you are drawing them in.

In Chinese writing, a square has three strokes. Always, and always done in the same order using the same strokes.
I think that is arbitrary. A think a more logical and consistent way is to use 4 strokes. BTW how is it drawn? Two sides on the first stroke? Or the last stroke?

6. Sorry to interrupt, but is anybody else reading Heph's woo-woo's with Ric Flair's voice?

All this whateverthatsgoingon up in here is just confirming my bias that my local line numbers are terrific because each line starts where another intersects

Edit: whatever you get what I mean, if you look at it (minus that whole part where I didn't account for potential seriffs)

Spoiler: >

/s

7. This is a little similar to the "line number" system - it is about the number of angles that are about 120 degrees or less.

It isn't very elegant though.

8. Originally Posted by JohnClay
.....Perhaps a 0 could be represented using a dot (0 lines) - the problem with that is that any number of dots would still be a 0.
Post #39
If I had to make a symbol with no lines, it would be a dot.
Well it looks like Arabic-Indic numerals originally had a dot for zero:

Also the Arabic-Indic 1, 2, 3 have 1, 2 and 3 lines...

9. Originally Posted by JohnClay
This is a little similar to the "line number" system - it is about the number of angles that are about 120 degrees or less.

It isn't very elegant though.
Zero angel baby Jesus

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