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Thread: Autism, Empathy and Mental-Health(?), Oh My!

  1. #21
    chaotic neutral shitpost jigglypuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    I've been "formally diagnosed" with so many different things now. ADD, bipolar, schizophrenia, schizoaffective, borderline, and on and on. The DSM is more open to interpretation than the bible. Psychiatry is gonna end up next to alchemy in the history books.
    yeah, well clinicians are human and can be wrong.

    it just annoys me to see people’s casual but serious diagnosing of others when pissed off or frustrated with them. clinicians also aren’t supposed to do this. i think it’s considered unethical.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jigglypuff View Post
    yeah, well clinicians are human and can be wrong.

    it just annoys me to see people’s casual but serious diagnosing of others when pissed off or frustrated with them. clinicians also aren’t supposed to do this. i think it’s considered unethical.
    There's been nothing "casual" about my diagnosis of Rev. Communication reached such bad levels I had no choice but to go and do research. Lo and behold, I found answers. Rev's ex wife also thought he was on the spectrum, he was convinced he has AvPD, he has one child diagnosed with ASD and one recently diagnosed with ADHD, I have more than enough reasons for think the way I do about Rev.

    Not saying you were directing that at me, but I just want to put that out there.

    But statistically, it'll take 4 or more therapists to successfully diagnose him even if it is true.

    Alas, that all takes time and money. In the mean time what do you do? Ignore these things?

    But I get what Sista is saying, even once diagnosed with whatever, doesn't mean you can then change who you are... But there's plenty of understanding to be gained.
    All truth passes through three stages:

    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.


  3. #23
    Ieilaelite pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    Ah, the Pollyanna principle.

    My mom and grandma went on and on about "the golden rule" when I was little, and in my deliberate effort to apply it I discovered that other than the obvious stuff like not hitting people and not taking people's stuff, most people don't want to be treated the way I want to be treated.

    I don't know, in spite of my need for massive piles of time by myself, I don't need to look to find good things about almost everyone I bother to get to know. I think the main reason I'm an obligate introvert is that I always tended to ignore the bad things about people to the point where it got me in trouble on a number of occasions. I suck at understanding the motives of others, and I almost never err in the direction of ascribing worse-than-actual motives. Despite having been burned many times, I still default to "he/she means well." I do this because I almost universally mean well in everything that I do, but the reality of it is that sometimes people mean to harm. I have been harmed intentionally or willfully many times and I STILL don't assume it even when I really should. I have to add in unnatural subroutines to remind myself that people aren't always good.

    Like with sweetgum dude. I assume he honestly just wanted to make a little side cash but after getting burned by side hires a few times, I now don't hire anyone who isn't bonded and insured and in business. I didn't want to embarrass him, but it was not a sweetgum. I would have wanted to know that in his position, but I'm so pedantic that I'd probably have keyed out the tree just to make sure before I dared utter what species it was, lol. Had he responded by saying, "Oh, my bad, you're right, that's an oak tree. Here's my business card, I'm a bonded and insured tree trimmer, check me out on the better business bureau," I might have hired him. I do need some tree trimming done. Other conversations with random solicitors in my yard selling services I need do tend to go something like, "Are you bonded and insured? What's your business number? Do you have a card? How long have you been in business?" These are pieces of data I need to determine if someone is going to sue me if they fall out of my tree, if they are going to do the work they are paid to do, etc. I know that it is considered socially awkward to ask these kinds of questions because it assumes that someone may not be honest, but sometimes you just have to assume that a person is not honest. If you are selling tree services, you need to be thick skinned enough to handle that sort of stuff.

    As for the guy in the zoo...well ok, maybe I embarrassed him initially. Despite his initial irritation the rest of the conversation went well, but that part doesn't enter into the jokes. I mean by the time we were done he seemed really happy with how the whole thing went. My initial approach was awkward, but if I'd been unwilling to point out he was wrong, we never could have had the whole exchange, and in this case, his kid got to have a one on one interaction with a herpetologist at the reptile exhibit at the zoo. I thought I was being incredibly social and friendly...until we got to the car and my husband and his friend started in on it. Husband in exaggerated Tex-ASS accent: "Now this right here is the deadliest snake in all of Texas*." His friend in a deadpan imitation of the rain man. "No it's not." Then they howl with laughter. Rinse and repeat every time they have beers for the rest of our lives.

    Aside: we were not in Texas when this happened. That's the only part of this that is funny to me. In fact, I thought that was the whole joke at first.
    I think interpreting the golden rule usefully also involves a lot of empathy. You have to put yourself in the position of others. Like how you would obviously realize that a guy with no shoes has no need of a shoeshine. Treat others the way you would want to be treated if you were them. That makes it a lot more difficult and complicated. Understanding the motives of others isn't that hard but it's work. You have to be willing to invest yourself into people, I can't judge anyone for being unwilling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinny View Post
    I'd suggest you get a better therapist then, because many of those things are vastllllyyyy different, and unless you're the most screwed up person on the planet, I fail to see how you could be diagnosed with all of them.

    Theoretically, they could be co-mormid, but you'd be a statistical diamond.
    Oh they're all from different doctors. Each of them in their quest to explain why the treatment for the others didn't work. The list of conditions and treatments is endless, but the treatment is always a pill.

  4. #24
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACow View Post
    But the analogy I'm drawing is that just like when a man (or woman) dismisses another because "must be that time of the month", so too is it common that an attempt of "are you autistic/on the spectrum" is not an actual diagnosis, but merely another way of delegitimising what is otherwise the phenomenon of general disagreement/conflict/emotional states/opinion/ culture.
    I've had this analogy come to mind several times in my life. Having someone delegitimize something I've expressed because I'm being "autistic" feels very similar to having my thoughts rejected or devalued because I "must be premenstrual." While both autism and pms are real phenomena that I may or may not be experiencing at any given moment, the truth and/or importance of statements I make is not negated by their existence or lack thereof. There were times in my life when this tactic was used on me more frequently, but nowadays I'm pretty well respected most of the time.
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

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  5. #25
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    Oh they're all from different doctors. Each of them in their quest to explain why the treatment for the others didn't work. The list of conditions and treatments is endless, but the treatment is always a pill.
    I presumed as much, but what you've said there is just further indication that you've had shit doctors/therapists.

    The best treatment for Schizophrenia is medication (I can attest to that with my brother recently), but the best treatment for BPD is DBT.

    Personally, in my research I've found that there is enough information and criteria that make each diagnosis completely distinct,. despite the fact many symptoms can over-lap.
    All truth passes through three stages:

    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.


  6. #26
    Now we know... Asteroids Champion ACow's Avatar
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    Oh here's a good e one (unpopular opinion).

    Neuro-typical is also primarily a legitimizing/delegitimising/identity-building tool.

    Again, while mental illness exists, and clearly there are functioning and ranges of human behavior, the idea of a binary split being an even vaguely appropriate system of human mental classification is even crazier than an attempt to instill intelligence down to a single 2d number.

    Here, let me just go crazy in this thread.

    There will never be a general AI developed because there is no such thing as a general intelligence/ general algorithm (and I'm kinda offended that I have to say that to anyone who understands algorithms, their complexity/ application). Of course, there might be tech that outperforms humans (I mean, that already exists), but what we are probably going to be taking about that could be developed is hardware/program that quickly arrives at solutions to problems subjectively approved and deemed important by a particular culture/class. The other observation is that most human concerns are not analytical.

    Let's move on: self- driving cars... are possible: bet you didn't see that one coming. But their implementation is years away (except for the cheating versions that preload the environment/follow signals/ tracks etc). However like the 3d printing boom that never happened, the economics/ sociology/ logistics of them vs the fantasy/sci-fi imaginings people have of what they'll do are at odds.

    And lastly, this one just needs to be said, not because it's unpopular necessarily, but because it's so good damn stupid. Elon musk and his boring company with his 'cars on sleds in tunnels' is... literally...one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

  7. #27
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    I think interpreting the golden rule usefully also involves a lot of empathy. You have to put yourself in the position of others. Like how you would obviously realize that a guy with no shoes has no need of a shoeshine. Treat others the way you would want to be treated if you were them. That makes it a lot more difficult and complicated. Understanding the motives of others isn't that hard but it's work. You have to be willing to invest yourself into people, I can't judge anyone for being unwilling.
    I'm probably far more empathetic than the average person. I mean the fact that I can't wrap my head around why a person would get so bent out of shape over being wrong aside, I tend to over-empathize. It's hard to express empathy in a socially appropriate manner because I don't like to communicate insincerely, but I still make the effort to walk that pedantic line even when it's exhausting. Empathy and platitudes seem mutually exclusive to me. How can one claim empathy when they aren't willing to be real enough to have an actual connection. I don't see empathy as a willingness to tell others what they want to hear so as to avoid causing them pain. I see it as a willingness to really connect even when it's hard work, even when it means being aware of differences of opinion, of being aware of how ones differences are hard for each other and being willing to know how hard it is to accept. What if most people are just pretending to be empathetic because they don't think anyone is worth the energy actual empathy would take?
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle

    This SEP field is glorious!

  8. #28
    Ieilaelite pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistamatic View Post
    I'm probably far more empathetic than the average person. I mean the fact that I can't wrap my head around why a person would get so bent out of shape over being wrong aside, I tend to over-empathize. It's hard to express empathy in a socially appropriate manner because I don't like to communicate insincerely, but I still make the effort to walk that pedantic line even when it's exhausting. Empathy and platitudes seem mutually exclusive to me. How can one claim empathy when they aren't willing to be real enough to have an actual connection. I don't see empathy as a willingness to tell others what they want to hear so as to avoid causing them pain. I see it as a willingness to really connect even when it's hard work, even when it means being aware of differences of opinion, of being aware of how ones differences are hard for each other and being willing to know how hard it is to accept. What if most people are just pretending to be empathetic because they don't think anyone is worth the energy actual empathy would take?
    "True empathy" is a huge conundrum. The Hegelian Master Slave dialectic is the only real attempt I've seen at deconstructing what happens when one of us encounters another one, and it starts with a fight over who's gonna be empathetic to who. To even attempt empathy demands self-denial and is a trust-fall into oblivion. True empathy can only follow shooting yourself in the head to escape the nightmare. Metaphysically I mean.

    I've had this analogy come to mind several times in my life. Having someone delegitimize something I've expressed because I'm being "autistic" feels very similar to having my thoughts rejected or devalued because I "must be premenstrual." While both autism and pms are real phenomena that I may or may not be experiencing at any given moment, the truth and/or importance of statements I make is not negated by their existence or lack thereof. There were times in my life when this tactic was used on me more frequently, but nowadays I'm pretty well respected most of the time.
    That's the traditional use for "mental illness", which has been used to suppress outspoken women and all kinds of unpopular dissenters since its inception. You can't just burn heretics anymore.

  9. #29
    chaotic neutral shitpost jigglypuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinny View Post
    There's been nothing "casual" about my diagnosis of Rev. Communication reached such bad levels I had no choice but to go and do research. Lo and behold, I found answers. Rev's ex wife also thought he was on the spectrum, he was convinced he has AvPD, he has one child diagnosed with ASD and one recently diagnosed with ADHD, I have more than enough reasons for think the way I do about Rev.

    Not saying you were directing that at me, but I just want to put that out there.

    But statistically, it'll take 4 or more therapists to successfully diagnose him even if it is true.

    Alas, that all takes time and money. In the mean time what do you do? Ignore these things?

    But I get what Sista is saying, even once diagnosed with whatever, doesn't mean you can then change who you are... But there's plenty of understanding to be gained.
    would you consider couples therapy? how has the therapist search been going btw? you’ve been talking about that for a while but i haven’t been following so maybe you’ve already found one.

    not saying you’re wrong, but the diagnoses and labels you’re using refer to mental disorders that are quite serious.

    yeah it does take time and money unfortunately, but if society were to think about prevention rather than punishing and treating easily prevented trauma and trauma-correlated disorders and chronic pain, so much time and money would be saved, not to mention lives. i think about this every day and it’ll never stop pissing me off.

    my SO works with kids and adults on the spectrum and there’s often comorbidity with other disorders, so i do trust him more than the average person if he makes a note of someone displaying the traits. he’s not qualified to diagnose, but i have a lot of respect for the experience he has and the clinicians tasked with treating people with ASD / neurodiverse backgrounds. i also have severe autism in my family so i think i get annoyed more than the average person about this.

  10. #30
    Homo siderius Sistamatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    "True empathy" is a huge conundrum. The Hegelian Master Slave dialectic is the only real attempt I've seen at deconstructing what happens when one of us encounters another one, and it starts with a fight over who's gonna be empathetic to who. To even attempt empathy demands self-denial and is a trust-fall into oblivion. True empathy can only follow shooting yourself in the head to escape the nightmare. Metaphysically I mean.
    Interesting thought pudding.

    I think the TLDR of what I was saying is that while being nice/polite can potentially derive from empathy, it is distinct from being empathetic. Annoying and vexing behaviors can also derive from having empathy for someone. Or to put it even more succinctly, you can be both empathetic and socially idiotic at the same time.

    That's the traditional use for "mental illness", which has been used to suppress outspoken women and all kinds of unpopular dissenters since its inception. You can't just burn heretics anymore.
    You don't need to. You can ruin them in the court of public opinion now. Everyone who runs for office gets publicly witch trialed for everything they ever did that could be construed as potentially wrong in any context. The one who floats wins? Or the one who is perceived to have floated by the most people?
    Insults are effective only where emotion is present. -- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Stardate 3468.1.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle

    This SEP field is glorious!

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