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Thread: Coronavirus

  1. #1801
    Senior Member Starjots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jigglypuff View Post
    in my post that you responded to, i mentioned the elephant in the room was western governments' refusal to learn from east asian countries reporting the earliest infections, regardless of them being branded a "democracy" or "authoritarian regime" by western media. countries like taiwan and south korea are considered "democracies." countries like china and vietnam are considered "authoritarian regimes."

    IMO, methods like widespread testing, contact tracing, mandatory quarantine (with governments taking care of the needs of those in quarantine), and wearing masks are pretty sensible considering the circumstances, but i guess these still need to be sold to the american public as "pro-america" and not like "authoritarian" asian countries before they're considered. i'm saying these things just have nothing to do with each other.
    I agree with you, for what it's worth. This strikes me as our 'not invented here' blind spot. It's a very expensive and bad habit.

  2. #1802
    Ieilaelite pensive_pilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jigglypuff View Post
    don't read up on any US history if you don't want this narrative disrupted.
    Because I live in the US and not China, I have had the complete freedom to read all about our history. I think that's a big reason why this country has such an anti-authoritarian culture, even to a fault sometimes. It's one thing to be informed about another nation's atrocities (and they all have them), without knowledge of your own that just creates a tribal mentality. But when you read about that shit happening in your own backyard, you take that shit to heart.

  3. #1803
    Senior Member jyng1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    Because I live in the US and not China, I have had the complete freedom to read all about our history. I think that's a big reason why this country has such an anti-authoritarian culture, even to a fault sometimes.
    Amazing so many people get shot in their pyjamas... or jogging.

  4. #1804
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    I think it's ridiculous for politicians to say China should have locked this shit down early on when they themselves saw what was coming their way and STILL denied the seriousness of the virus and didn't lock down until it was too late. Are you fucking kidding me?

    Even if China had admitted it was contagious a week earlier, nothing would have changed. If you believe community transmission by asymptomatic people is a thing, and if you believe infection rates are orders of magnitude higher than our numbers reflect, then this cat was out of the bag before China even knew it existed. Do you think one old guy walked into an ER in Wuhan, died of flu-like symptoms, and doctors were like "Hmm, must be a brand new pandemic-level virus!"? I have no idea how hospitals work but I'd guess they see people all the time who die of pneumonia and they never bother to figure out exactly what it was that killed them. Especially old people. This thing was probably going around Wuhan for months before anyone suspected anything unusual.

  5. #1805
    Senior Member jyng1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starla View Post
    I think it's ridiculous for politicians to say China should have locked this shit down early on when they themselves saw what was coming their way and STILL denied the seriousness of the virus and didn't lock down until it was too late. Are you fucking kidding me?
    It's a ploy to divert attention away from their own inadequate response. Election coming up; they're gonna spray shit everywhere.

    Last edited by jyng1; 05-23-2020 at 12:01 PM.

  6. #1806
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    Erm, how are the WHO a "reputable" organisation? I'm pretty sure they have quite a few scandals under their belt, as well as being headed by a Communist Terrorist who's in bed with the CPC.

    Here's an article - I'm not very familiar with the Spectator US - but I am familiar with the facts they are reporting herein:

    Xi’s useful idiots against free speech
    Free-thinking people everywhere should condemn those among us who facilitate China’s lies

    On December 30, Ai Fen, director of the emergency department at Wuhan Central Hospital, got the lab results back about one of her patients who had a flulike illness. The words she read on the report made her blood run cold: ‘Sars coronavirus’. She circled the word ‘Sars’, took a photo and emailed it to a doctor at a neighboring hospital. Within hours, the photo had been sent to dozens of people in the Wuhan medical community. One of them sent a series of messages to a private group on WeChat, advising his colleagues to take precautions, and someone took screenshots of those messages and shared them more widely.

    Had those doctors been working in another Southeast Asian country (Taiwan, say), the media would have quickly picked up on the chatter about a mysterious new virus and, within days, the authorities would have had no choice but to investigate. On learning of a viral outbreak, they would have then done their best to contain it.

    But because this was China, the doctors with whom Ai Fen shared the photograph were arrested two days later, forced to sign confessions saying they were guilty of spreading false information and only released when they’d given an undertaking not to talk about the new virus again. The story made it onto CCTV, the state-owned television network, but it wasn’t about the emergence of a new disease. Rather, it was about a group of irresponsible doctors in Wuhan who had been punished for ‘rumor-mongering’.

    We cannot know for certain that the outbreak would have been nipped in the bud if China were a free country rather than a communist dictatorship, but we do know that by the time the state decided to act it was too late. After a Herculean effort to deny that SARS-CoV-2 posed any danger to the public, including persuading the World Health Organization (WHO) to announce there was no evidence of ‘human-to-human transmission’ on January 14, the Chinese authorities finally admitted there was a problem on January 23, imposing a cordon sanitaire around Wuhan and surrounding cities in Hubei Province. That was two days before the Chinese New Year holiday on January 25; by that time an estimated five million people had already left the area and traveled to other cities in China to be with their families for the holidays.

    It’s worth noting that the travel ban imposed on January 23 applied only to internal journeys, not to international ones. Residents of Wuhan and other cities in the region were still able to fly to New York, Los Angeles, London, Paris and Milan. Why the ban applied only to travel within China is a question that Xi Jinping still hasn’t answered. As Andrew Sullivan put it in New York magazine: ‘It’s as if the Chinese Communist party leaders said to themselves, “Well, we’re going under, so we might as well bring the rest of the world down with us.”’

    Would the emergence of a novel coronavirus in Wuhan at the end of December have led to a global pandemic if the Chinese authorities had acted more quickly? Almost certainly not. A group of researchers at the University of Southampton looked at what difference it would have made if the travel ban and other non-pharmaceutical interventions had been put in place three weeks earlier, as soon as the doctors raised the alarm. They concluded that cases would have been reduced by 95 percent. In all likelihood, the virus would never have made it out of Hubei.

    No doubt China will be judged to have mismanaged this crisis in a number of ways when the official inquiries get under way. There are already a flurry of lawsuits seeking compensation from the Chinese government, including one launched by Missouri Attorney General Eric Schmitt, who claims the state has suffered tens of billions of dollars in economic losses as a result of China’s negligence.

    But perhaps China’s biggest sin was to stop those Wuhan doctors exercising their right to free speech. Had they been allowed to raise their concerns in the public arena, instead of being silenced and publicly shamed, it’s likely that hundreds of thousands of people across the world would now still be alive. At the time of writing, there have been 4.1 million confirmed cases of COVID-19 and 283,000 deaths from the disease.

    China’s suppression of free speech didn’t just apply to its own people, but extended, indirectly, to other countries via the WHO and tech giants like Google. Remember, YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki appeared on CNN’s Reliable Sources on April 22 and declared that the social media platform would remove any content that challenged the WHO’s version of events. That means the WHO was effectively dictating what people were allowed to say about the disease on YouTube, and that in turn enabled the Chinese Communist party to extend its control of the coronavirus narrative far beyond its own borders.

    Not only did the WHO faithfully do the bidding of the Communist party authorities on January 14, but, according to a leak from German intelligence, Xi Jinping telephoned WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom on January 21 and urged him to delay issuing a warning about the virus.

    Sure enough, the WHO didn’t declare the crisis a global pandemic until March 11. Xi Jinping, it turns out, has an army of useful idiots stretching halfway across the world. America and other western authorities should demand that Beijing stop censoring important truths. Free-thinking people everywhere should condemn those among us who facilitate China’s lies and apologize for its shameless regime.

    The CPC is now threatening Australia with huge tariffs because they dared to join 121 other countries in calling for a complete investigation into China's handling of the pandemic... Although they are basically asking the WHO to investigate the WHO, so I'm not sure how well that will pan out.

    I had no idea how dangerous China really were. You know they've had spies embedded in countless western universities? Quite a few have been found and kicked out recently (most notably in numerous virology labs)? And despite innumerable human rights offences, such as sending millions of Muslims off to "re-education" camps, they've been admitted into the UN Human Rights board (a long with a bunch of other barbarians). Both Facebook & YouTube seem to adopting CPC internet censorship. Countless doctors, academics and professionals are being censored and removed from these platforms if they say anything that contradicts the WHO. We're talking about censoring the access to information for over 2 billion people. Ask yourself why, and why now?

    At this point, I really don't think the WHO or the UN are credible in the slightest.. I think the WHO, the UN and China pose a serious threat to the integrity of our nation States. It's no coincidence that the Globalists want to use China as a model for the rest of the world to follow. Total population control.

    Did any of you ever read George Orwell? Because not many of you seem hip to Covid1984.

    Tanzania & Madagascar have recently called out the Covid fraud & bribery perpetuated by the WHO, but in typical western arrogance, African leaders aren't worth paying attention to, right ? And in typical fashion, those two countries now find themselves on the end of a WHO smear campaign.

    If there's one thing I've learned in my time away from this forum, it's how narrow the parameters of discussion are here.





    All truth passes through three stages:

    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.


  7. #1807
    Senior Member Sinny's Avatar
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    If you get bored during lockdown, why don't you read a book from Bill Gates reading list?



    Spoiler: >


    All truth passes through three stages:

    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident.


  8. #1808
    Senior Member jyng1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinny View Post
    [CENTER]If you get bored during lockdown, why don't you read a book from Bill Gates reading list?

    Not in lockdown and not bored. It's been over for a month...

  9. #1809
    No Thank You Blorg's Avatar
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    It's ridiculous to put China's authoritarianism in "sarcasm quotes." The government is open about it - specifically, its philosophy is often referred to as neo-authoritarianism. Like Hungary and Israel - two other openly authoritarian nations that I mentioned before - China is taking this opportunity to strengthen its stringent controls over its population, as this article, released yesterday, reflects: China's proposed national security law could end Hong Kong as we know it
    .

    If you think that China reacted to the coronavirus swiftly and effectively, you're turning a blind eye to news that is readily available. A doctor who warned authorities about it was interrogated, punished, and told to stop spreading rumors. So the virus overwhelmed medical systems in Wuhan and took many more lives than it would have if he had been heard. Chinese people who wrote about him on WeChat immediately had their comments deleted. A lone Chinese journalist who investigated the conditions in Wuhan hospitals was subsequently disappeared.

    I spent a fair amount of time looking for evidence that the coronavirus emerged somewhere other than China (not because of this thread - earlier) and couldn't find anything from authoritative sources. The concensus among the vast majority of researchers is that it started in China.

    Apologism for an authoritarian regime and revisionism shouldn't be seen as an antitode to prejudice.

    Secondly, this idea that "democracy = good" and "authoritarianism = bad" with no nuances whatsoever is one of those times when I'm reminded that people should take the humanities more seriously - especially Rousseau and Plato. Forcing a lockdown is authoritarian, but it could also very well be the right choice - and there's no need for any cognitive dissonance there. It should be handled with great care, public awareness, and paranoia, so that it doesn't overlast its time. But as many political philosophers have argued, sometimes the most effective way to combat disasters is to temporarily permit authoritarian measures.

  10. #1810
    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    By "overwhelmed" I don't simply mean stressed, I mean having more coronavirus cases than they could treat. It doesn't even make sense to say that a morgue would be overwhelmed in that sense of the word. NYC hospitals never ran out of beds or ventilators. There were never any instances of crisis triage. Nobody died for lack of care, at least not from covid. These are the things that the lockdown was intended to prevent, and none of them really even came close to happening.
    What a joy it is to come back to this thread after a month only to keep reading ever more ludicrous bullshit from you. Now there's no such thing as morgues being overwhelmed, and there was no crisis in NY hospitals - only stress! I happen to know someone who's on the front lines in a NY hospital but, unlike me, she has a lot less time to be trolled by you here.

    Quote Originally Posted by pensive_pilgrim View Post
    No, because you still seem to think that the point of the lockdowns was to stop people from getting coronavirus period. The point of them was to stop too many people from getting coronavirus at the same time and overwhelming hospitals such that they could not treat everyone. So yes, your friend's family member's death did have to happen, unless we were going to lockdown until there's a vaccine, which is unrealistic and was never the plan.
    And this is why you're an irredeemable troll. You should really go around telling people IRL that the deaths of their relatives had to happen - I wonder if you'd still have a face after the first day. I'm not engaging you anymore - you're on ignore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Heh. We've been here years now.

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