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Thread: "whiteness" and you.

  1. #61
    Hasta Siempre Madrigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDF View Post
    Fair enough. We could just replace the Apollonian-vs-Dionysian dichotomy with a Superego-vs-Id dichotomy. The choice of Apollonian-vs-Dionysian as the key dichotomy is Paglia's. But these various dichotomies are all more or less "proxies" for one another, in a Jungian sense.
    I think Dionysius and Apollo are both... for grown-ups. Babies have no idea of work or bacchanal. There is no "letting go" without restraint. Even though on some levels they can be used interchangeably, Freud's categories would work better here because they can exist separately. The former, I don't think so.

    Back to the whole thesis/antithesis thing, I think the dialetic is often applied to sequential events or described in a schematic way composed of "instances", but only to make it easier to describe. Actually there's just no such thing as the one without the other. I think that, even as we know this, we're tempted to use it sequentially. And I think Christianity, with the autonomy it grants to good and evil, light and dark, and the fact its story clearly separates one from the other in time and space, that doesn't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Limes View Post
    See the Abstract: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/146195.pdf?seq=1

    Also referenced and discussed here: https://www.brookings.edu/research/a...united-states/
    Also see page 575 "Why do we care?" and page 585 referencing the Wood study here: https://olin.wustl.edu/docs/Faculty/Wax.pdf
    I have to sign up for that. I will check it out though, and see how "poco serio" it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
    This is the systemic racism narrative of blaming the white race for all of the problems of people of colour. You were discussing cultural differences earlier. Could it be that their own cultures are largely responsible for their problems? Maybe Protestantism is a good thing that has the power to lift individuals out of their problems.
    Don't even try to pin that on me. I live in the third world, I'm not guilty of anything, and I'm not thankful to anyone. And my race depends on whoever's looking at me.

    Protestantism is something I decry whenever I sense delayed gratification is going on. No, gracias!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestus View Post
    Heh. We've been here years now.

  2. #62
    Member RDF's Avatar
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    Okay, here is that essay I promised. I wrote it on the quick; sorry for typos and sloppy grammar.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDF View Post
    By the way, Paglia got her inspiration from Erich Neumann, a student of Jung's, and particularly his book "The Origins and History of Consciousness." Published in 1949, Jung approved it enthusiastically, and it describes the development of human psychology from the first appearance of self-awareness up to the present.
    Neumann says that people pass through 3 or 4 big developmental stages or landmarks as they mature. Those stages or landmarks get highlighted in any individual's own personal psychological development, and also get projected outward into the culture around the people, appearing as transpersonal myths, stories, and customs.

    A couple big personal landmarks are:

    --The pre-individuation stage: The newborn infant registers the presence and activities of a powerful mother figure, but it doesn't register itself as a separate being. There are no boundaries, and it can be distressing to the infant to be so connected and vulnerable. The mother is a source of security and nurturance but also frustration and anxiety at times. Crying babies and all that.

    --The separation-individuation stage: Around the age of 2, the child learns that it is a separate entity, and even begins to rebel and assert its independence from the powerful mother figure. There is development of the superego and things like guilt, narratives and self-talk about oneself, etc. Also, the child learns to distinguish between the father and mother as separate caretakers and begins to learn about how the sexes work and starts to identify as one or the other.

    --Sexual maturation: In their early teens, children develop sexual urges toward the opposite sex, but they have to sort all that out against the backdrop of the powerful parent figures, who also represent possible sexual targets or threats.

    --Social maturation: Figuring out the rules of society, pecking order, all that stuff.

    Those four main stages subsequently show up in the transpersonal dimension in the following manner:

    --The pre-individuation stage show up in one of two main ways: Animism myths, and fertility rites and rituals.
    --Animism reflects the boundarilessness of the infant: Everything is connected, and magic flows between the individual and the animals and nature around him. Gods are depicted as animals or hybrid animal-human figures. Examples: Egyptian worship of cats and scarabs, or Egyptian hybrid demigods like the Sphinx.
    --Fertility rituals reflect the power of the mother figure. That power gets projected outward as powerful matriarchal goddesses. Also, primitive man trying to understand fertility cycles (of both nature and of women in particular) came up with myths about death in the autumn and rebirth in the spring. That all got back-projected onto the powerful female goddesses and developed into human sacrificial rites. Hence goddesses like Kali, who has a necklace of severed male heads and carries a sword.

    --The individuation stage shows up with the appearance of the Anima and Animus, and shows up in mythology as polytheism and patriarchal gods. That largely stems from recognition of the difference in sexes and development of a superego. The old matriarchal goddesses get repressed into the unconscious and reappear in the new polytheistic myths as female monsters (think Circe, Medusa, Scylla and Charybdis, the Sirens, Calypso, the Harpies, etc. in the Greek myths), while father figures and men's societies come to the foreground as the new objects of worship. The old fertility rites still hang around, but they become "mystery religions," such as the Dionysian rites in Rome.

    --The sexual maturation stage shows up as the famed Jungian "Hero fight": A princess (the Anima figure) needs to be rescued from a dragon (a remnant of the powerful punishing mother goddess). Sexuality has to be wrested from the mother figure and be claimed as a prize. This gets reflected as myths like Perseus killing Medusa and then rescuing Andromeda; or in traditions of chivalry, where knights rescue princesses from evil stepmothers or quest on behalf of princesses against dragons.

    --The social maturation stage shows up as "redemption" myths, featuring some form of union or reconciliation of son and father, with the son maturing and taking on the mantle and role of the father. This shows up in such things as Christ merging with God to form the trinity, or Odysseus turning to his father at the end of the Odyssey to solve the problem of the mutinous families after he has killed the suitors.

    To wrap up:

    As I mentioned before, the first stage is purely "Dionysian" or "Id." The second stage tends to be kind of severely Apollonian, with the emphasis on exploring the father identity. The third stage leans toward more Dionysian again, due to the moderating influence of the Princess; the fourth stage gets more Apollonian with assumption of the father's mantle. (This alternation of influences, developmentally, explains why teenagers can get confused about their sexuality.)

    Note that this scheme is mostly from the boy's point of view; it gets modified somewhat from the girl's point of view.

    **************
    So anyway, that's all by way of answering your question as to whether the Jungian Apollonian-vs-Dionysian (Superego-vs-Id) dichotomy extends across the entire lifecycle. Basically, yes it does. For example, Paglia's book ("Sexual Persona") starts by discussing the Venus of Willendorf, an art object dated 30,000 BC, as an example of Dionysian art. After that she quickly get into Egyptian art and the very first appearance of Apollonian art/design features. And so on.

    A couple notes:

    1) If an indigenous people's myths and religion still shows strong signs of animism and fertility symbols, for example, that doesn't mean that the consciousness of the individuals within that culture is also stuck at that stage. Obviously, modern humans worldwide all go through full psychological maturation, including courtship rituals and learning how to socialize. Still, the official religion and myths of any given culture tend to get frozen at one stage or another, and that may lead to any given culture having a more Dionysian or Apollonian cast to its cultural philosophy.

    2) We talked about using a Superego-vs-Id dichotomy to designate the period before individuation, and I'm fine with that. But upon individuation or sometime after that, it's probably best to return to a discussion of the Apollonian-vs-Dionysian dichotomy. It isn't just Paglia that uses it. For example, below is a link to a lecture give by Ayn Rand in 1969 talking about the Apollonian-vs-Dionysian dichotomy in US culture at that time. She says that the moon landing in 1969 represents the Apollonian current, whereas Woodstock represents the Dionysian current. Naturally, since it's Ayn Rand, she favors the Apollonian current. Link: https://courses.aynrand.org/works/apollo-and-dionysus/

    Anyway, I'll stop here. Naturally, this is a very superficial treatment. Neumann's book runs 500 pages and Paglia's book runs 700 pages. So I could write forever on these subjects and still not even scratch the surface.
    Last edited by RDF; 07-18-2020 at 12:53 AM. Reason: typos and grammar

  3. #63
    Senior Member Guess Who's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    Protestantism is something I decry whenever I sense delayed gratification is going on. No, gracias!
    I understand that in some cultures people keep their evening plans open and can get together and socialize with others on the spur of the moment. How does not delaying gratification work in practice outside of this?

    Does it mean not saving money, not pursuing higher education, not buying a house, not seeking a promotion, not starting a business? Is it just a job + rent + social life?

    In your culture are Protestants more likely to pursue higher education, seek promotion, own property and start businesses etc?
    Back yourself.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    I think Dionysius and Apollo are both... for grown-ups. Babies have no idea of work or bacchanal. There is no "letting go" without restraint. Even though on some levels they can be used interchangeably, Freud's categories would work better here because they can exist separately. The former, I don't think so.
    Good enough for me. As long as I can talk about Apollonian-vs-Dionysian at the adult level and within a given culture at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madrigal View Post
    Back to the whole thesis/antithesis thing, I think the dialetic is often applied to sequential events or described in a schematic way composed of "instances", but only to make it easier to describe. Actually there's just no such thing as the one without the other. I think that, even as we know this, we're tempted to use it sequentially. And I think Christianity, with the autonomy it grants to good and evil, light and dark, and the fact its story clearly separates one from the other in time and space, that doesn't help.
    I can drop the dialectic analogy. FWIW, Neumann does describe a kind of dialectical mechanism within any given developmental stage: Tension develops between the extraverted and introverted variants of a given stage and results in a "centroverted" variant that carries the individual upward into the start of the next developmental stage. But I don't have time to get into all that. So if describing this stuff in terms of dialectics distracts you, I'm happy to drop that subject.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDF View Post
    I'm saying that this sort of stuff is just "politics as usual." In saying that, I'm not excusing it. Politics are pretty divisive and extreme these days, and a lot of shaky shit gets said and done by either side of the political divide.

    But it is what it is. It's "politics as usual." So I just look at it through my particular prism. Not to excuse it, but to try to get a handle on it in my own way.

    By the way, just to be clear about my own politics: I voted Trump in 2016--mostly as a protest vote against "politics as usual." I don't live in a battleground state, so my vote doesn't matter anyway. So I mainly just do protest votes.
    it certainly is not politics as usual, the author of the piece is airing various ism's that aren't being checked.
    it is excusing such behaviour to harken to chaos/order dichotomy when people get pulled up for doing less.
    the infographic leans on white supremacy, black incompetence, white saviourism, racism, sexism, religious discrimination, and no doubt other things i cba to list.
    i haven't seen the Conservative wing airing such shit cause they always get called up for far less even while making sure to dot their i's correctly, such as when talking about police brutality.

    what we've gotten to witness here is the hydra, a snake that can look both left and right, hell spawn crafted by sin which will no doubt be excused by sin.
    no human can be a white supremacist and anti-white at the same time, only the hydra can, no human can claim to be pro-black while at the same time insisting that black autonomy is bad, only the hydra can do that.
    the hydra knows only how to destroy, the target here being the collective culture of humanity which took hold everywhere prior to any formal contact being made.
    now they go to the backroom once more to figure out how to craft the message correctly.

    and good on you voting for trump, you can no doubt sleep easy doing so.
    if trump posted that graphic what do you think would have happened?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by aiyanah View Post
    it certainly is not politics as usual, the author of the piece is airing various ism's that aren't being checked.
    it is excusing such behaviour to harken to chaos/order dichotomy when people get pulled up for doing less.
    the infographic leans on white supremacy, black incompetence, white saviourism, racism, sexism, religious discrimination, and no doubt other things i cba to list.
    i haven't seen the Conservative wing airing such shit cause they always get called up for far less even while making sure to dot their i's correctly, such as when talking about police brutality.

    what we've gotten to witness here is the hydra, a snake that can look both left and right, hell spawn crafted by sin which will no doubt be excused by sin.
    no human can be a white supremacist and anti-white at the same time, only the hydra can, no human can claim to be pro-black while at the same time insisting that black autonomy is bad, only the hydra can do that.
    the hydra knows only how to destroy, the target here being the collective culture of humanity which took hold everywhere prior to any formal contact being made.
    now they go to the backroom once more to figure out how to craft the message correctly.

    and good on you voting for trump, you can no doubt sleep easy doing so.
    if trump posted that graphic what do you think would have happened?
    I say it's politics as usual. As a white, straight male Boomer, I've learned not to comment on what women, gays, Blacks, and other minorities do. If they want to espouse empty, demeaning, or self-destructive messages, it's none of my business.

    I have problems of my own. When the American Psychological Association came out last year and declared that "traditional masculinity" is harmful*, I figured that the culture wars were already lost, and now the lefties are taking shots across my bow. If the official psychological establishment is now pathologizing the very way that I live, then I'm just going to focus on laying low, minding my own business, and defending my own front and back yards. No one wants to hear what an old retiree like myself thinks of the world anyway, so the world can go to hell as far as I care.

    I've seen 50 years of this culture war nonsense. Today, if there are battles to be fought, let the internet trolls fight them. It's none of my business. It's just politics as usual, baby.

    * https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ul/2538520002/
    Last edited by RDF; 07-18-2020 at 01:25 PM.

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